Occupy Wall Street: What’s Really Going On

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[quote=thc0655]

[Edited by Travlin]

If I were part of the movement (and I’m not) I would advocate for making "Prosecute the Fraud" as the first or one of the first demands.  We’ve all made mistakes (of commission and omission) but only some of us have committed actual crimes. Let’s start there by prosecuting the frauds that are currently illegal (starting with the biggest frauds and working our way down the food chains).  The system has to be either reformed (which begins with prosecution) or it has to be replaced. Demanding prosecutions would be a good way to help us decide if reform is possible, or if replacement will be required.

Secondly, prosecution is one of the few steps that could be taken without educating and moving millions of people.  All it would take is one courageous public servant here (an order by the President) or there (the NY Attorney General, the US AG, the FBI Director, the SEC Chairman).  This would be a clear litmus test as to who we should vote for or against.

Third, prosecutions would have a huge deterrent effect on those who thrive on ripping us and the system off.  This is something we could build on. Besides, who could be against "Prosecute the Fraud"?  I know, I know.  Bush and Obama, Greenspan and Bernanke, Geithner and Paulson, and Holder: they’re all opposed to prosecuting the fraud. But that makes them obvious targets for replacement, doesn’t it.

Who in America CAN’T understand "Prosecute the Fraud?"  Who in America, the Tea Party, the left or the right, the students and the retired, or the OWS movement wouldn’t be heartened and energized by seeing a huge wave of prosecutions begin?  Think of how many aspiring future national leaders would see this as their ticket to higher office and jump into it with both feet?

[/quote]

Thc

I love the brilliant simplicity of your proposal. It is exactly what is needed. You have a very clever mind.

 Travlin

22

Wonderful, really wonderful!
I don’t think you’re a "hard core conservative", I think you may be a budding libertarian. If so, welcome to the club!

Our society has actively sought to expel God from the public space.  1/2 think its better that way, 1/2 think it sucks. Nobody's happy.  We eat Cheetos and watch porn.  God leaves us alone.
Love this!
23

Sometimes I wonder what’s happened to me, but I am sure that I see things more clearly now.  Thanks for the kind word.

24

Dear Livio --Thanks for your remarks.  Facts are like statistics.  They can be used selectively to support a case.  Take Fox News for instance.  They used the fact of Mayor Bloomberg’s comments to serve a political agenda (according to Dr. Martenson).  I find it difficult to see how the "facts" presented in the video were any less biased than those from Fox.  CM chose who he spoke with based on his view of what was taking place.
The swipe at Fox was a swipe at the right.  How else can that be interpreted?  Now if CM had provided an equally dismissive remark about MSNBC or the NYT…
Just callin’ it for what it looks like from the outside, my friend.
Cheers to you, too!
Outcast 19 

25
 CM chose who he spoke with based on his view of what was taking place.
The "fact" of the matter is, I chose at least half of the people he spoke with.  ;) I appreciate your POV.   Thank you! -L    
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[quote=Rector]Sometimes I wonder what’s happened to me, but I am sure that I see things more clearly now.
[/quote]
I felt the same way a few years ago. Connecting the dots takes one on a strange journey, if one is open to it. Previous perceptions and dogmas get blown away. In truth, I’m still going through that process, but feel much closer to a destination than when I started.

27

Reading these comments completely confirms why I’ve enjoyed Chris Martenson for four years. I get honest, fact-based commentary and analysis without partisan political bias. Opinion? Yes, I get some of that too- including this blog. As Chris teaches, I recognize it and take for what it is. He’s earned it and I respect it. KEEP IT UP, CHRIS MARTENSON,!

28

Thanks for your remarks, Travlin.  First, I agree with your assessment of thc0655’s remarks.  Prosecuting the fraud would be a great theme for strating a turn around.  It would not, however, produce the type of fundemental change needed to restore the Republic.  That would require an enormous amount of time and energy on the part of voters over multiple election cycles.  And, now that I think of it, prosecuting the fraud seems terribly similar to the cries of "off with their heads" sounded at the beginning of the French Revolution.  We all know how that turned out.I also agree that economics and politics are necessarily joined at the hip.  But both are social sciences, and niether lends itself to the kind of factual analysis found in the Crash Course.  CM may very well be non-partisan, but I stand by my assertion that his political bias (which differs from partisanship) ought not to have been introduced by inference.  To be clear about my meaning, I’m sure most of us will agree in a non-partisan way that both Dems and GOPs are at fault, but will likely have major differences when it comes to our ideas about how to fix the problems.
If CM has a post-crisis political outcome in mind, then let him share it with us.  I’m certainly open to hearing what he has to say on the subject.
Outcast 19

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Dr. Martenson has remained impressively non-partisan, especially considering the political tentacles penetrating the 3E’s. Nonetheless, I also cringed when he announced his reporting of the OWS. Condensing a varied gathering into a short video forces such a degree of selective editing that unintentionally revealing political leanings becomes a hazard. Such seems the case here. I’ve become so accustomed to the cool logic of some alternative media  – especially CM.com – that I recoil at the slightest whiff of bias here.   Outcast 19s points are valid. 
Addionally, a more balanced video may have shown the high-minded, well dressed businesswoman holding the "infinite growth … finite world" sign followed by some unsavory aspects present:  attempted union highjacking of the event, some fool defacating on a police car, or soundbites of typical protest drivel.  In the end, all of it "is really going on there." 

30

 Thanks for giving folks like me who can’t easily get away to NYC your assessment of what is going on.  That’s great that awareness is building.  Awareness leads to understanding which leads to action.
 

31

Then have another. You said exactly what I have been thinking. thco655's suggestion to Prosecute the Fraud would be a great first step toward finding out if the system can be fixed. If Holder or the NY AG won’t take up the cudgels, we at least find out where the problems really lie.

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Dear Outcast, welcome to the site.

You seem to me like somebody who likes to wear the "hot button" vest, leaping at the opportunity to construe a statement as an attack upon your politics.  You go so far as to accuse Chris of selectively interviewing people in the crowd to further a political goal – why?  Because Chris said something bad about Fox News, which you equate as an attack on the whole right wing of national politics?

My suggestion?  Let’s put it away for a minute.

In my opinion, people who object to the RT article because they personally disagree with the politics in it are missing Chris’ point.

In Chris’ opinion, the RT article "gives a much more balanced summary."  Of what?  Of the feelings, intentions, and general sentiment of the people in the crowds!  If the article has a leftist tinge, that might be very appropriate (possibly unwittingly on the part of RT) because the crowds in NYC have a leftist tinge.  Not unthinkable for NYC.

Conversely, after first-hand investigation Chris believes that Bloomerg’s claim that "What they’re trying to do is take the jobs away from people working in this city," with the intent to cripple New York City’s economy, is simply wrong.  That is, in Chris’ objective judgement the protestors’ shared intent (to the extent it exists) is not to be economic sabateurs.  In fact the report was so clearly wrong that in Chris’ opinion, it is not evidence of a good faith effort at accuracy.

As a result of that, Chris loses some respect for that person rather than remaining inclined to continue to listen to them.  That sounds like a neutral scientist to me: evaluating the credibility of sources based on direct verification of what they have said, and losing respect for sources whose claims do not reflect the facts as he finds them to be.

Does that mean that Chris has to be a registered communist in disguise because he found the RT news article did a much better (he didn’t say perfect) job?  Hardly.  It has nothing to do with his own personal politics.

Chris is only telling it to you the way it is on the ground in New York (a left-leaning city, in case you hadn’t heard), and I for one appreciate the accurate first-hand report.

P.S. - Rector, I liked your comment (#18) very much.

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[quote=rhare]We really need to stop the "us versus them" narative.  It’s divisive and doesn’t help bring everyone together to solve our current predicament. 
[/quote]
I don’t know rhare, 1% of smart sociopaths does not sound excessive to me…?
Samuel

34

Outcast19
Wow, talk about trying to voice your disapproval before getting all the facts.

How about you tell us your affiliations so we can better judge why you are talking the way you do towards another person, without respect or regard for his freedom of choice and association. It sounds to me that you are an extremist "with us or against us" kinda person.

So tell us, Outcast19. What are your biases? What is your party? Where do you stand on social and political and economic issues? I want to know what kind of person talks like judgmental like you do, so I can learn to recognize them.

Poet

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I would encourage everyone to write the Department of Justice every day strongly urging them to prosecute the Wall Street and Washington criminals who have precipitated this financial crisis.  Ditto with your Congressman, Senator, and President.
http://www.justice.gov/contact-us.html

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[quote=Poet]
Frobn
I think you may have quoted the wrong person. I have not said anything about George Soros, as you may see from your quote of my words.
Poet[/quote]
Poet, I am sorry about that, I have no excuse for my carelessness and not previewing my response which was intended  to rhare’s post. I will do my best to be more careful in the future.
 
 

37

[quote=Rector]The OWS protests have no unifying theme, because there are so many things wrong, its hard to put your finger on it, or sum it up in a 10 second sound bite.  Think of the OWS as the mirror image of the Tea Party.  Large groups of people who see legitimate and real problems.  Its not that the problems are false, or a complete listing; there are just LOTS of things wrong.  We are totally f*cked.  People on the Right see it, people on the left see it.  Both can be true at the same time.
Rector[/quote]
There are so many things wrong so where do you start? I believe Chris gives an excellent summary.

The ‘protest’ is as much about participation and discussion as about airing grievances. People are talking. They are debating. They are doing exactly what you learn about in grade school when they teach you about how our political system has worked in the past and is supposed to work today. The difference, of course, is that no real debate, discussion, nor real participation is happening in Congress or the Senate.
Karl Denninger, a hard core conservative, has a similar view OWS: The Risks Facing America Today
Now, finally, it appears that the people have awoken.  A day of ineffectual sign-waving isn't enough any more.  Oh sure, that's part of it, but the part the media is ignoring - for now - is what's happening after the "able to be ignored political rally" is over. The people are organizing a Congress - a real one - in the public square. They're passing around ideas. They're debating. They're arguing. And then they're VOTING. It's self-organized.  It's real.  And while the crooners in the mainstream media are trying to ignore what's actually happening, they're not stopping it - and in fact, they probably can't stop it at this point.
38

[quote=rhare]We really need to stop the "us versus them" narative.It’s divisive and doesn’t help bring everyone together to solve our current predicament.  It’s why we need to take back control and bring it to the local community level.  It is very hard to effect change in a large centralized bureaucracy, but smaller groups can certainly bring about change at the local level.  In order to bring about "self-resiliency" you have to have the ability to make decisions (right or wrong) about how to live.  Unfortunately we have seen more of that decision making abilty being taken away from us in all aspects of our lives (energy, healthcare, food, …)
[/quote]rhare,
I can’t agree more. I have been consistant is saying the same thing in many of my posts on OWS. I have said it is the fanasy of the left to hijack OWS and the fantasy of the right to criminalize OWS. Fox does not deviate from the right so it is hard to take them serious as it is hard to take serious mainstream media on the left. Unfortunately mainstream media is only what most people listen and I find OWS so refreshing. In democratic fashion, they are discussing, listenting, arguing, debating and certainly getting more than they can get from MSN or Fox or mainstream media in general.
 

39

[quote=Travlin] 

Thc
I love the brilliant simplicity of your proposal. It is exactly what is needed. You have a very clever mind.
 Travlin
 
[/quote]
I can’t quote a source right now, but I recently read about or heard from one of the prosecuters from the S&L fiasco.  The Justice Dept. had a thousand lawyers who prosecuted and convicted 1,100 banksters.  Today there are apparently no Justice Dept. lawyers working on similar prosecutions.  Where is the political or bureaucratic will to devote those kinds of resources to getting these bad guys?  It doesn’t seem to exist.
Doug

40

I’m not sure Fox did all that bad of a job explaining it.  Charles Krauthammer summarized the protest as an "Eat the Rich" protest. 
I would suggest that everyone go rent Dr. Zhivago and watch some of the scenes where Bolshevik revolutionaries move into Dr. Zhivago’s house.  When he starts to protest, they remind him that there is no property ownership in the new Russia.

All of us that have started building resiliency need to remember that after the crash occurs, owners of food will be the new 1%.  If a mob raids one of our harvests, we all get to starve together. 

We keep saying we’ll band together in a sense of community, but I’m losing hope in that.  The only town near me to commission a transition town study basically plagiarized the transition handbook, added some local statistics, and declared victory.  It was a sad political stunt with no meaning.  A group of kids could have written a better handbook.