[quote=Jim H]Will never be worth zero.
You pick and choose your examples… sure, music files and digitized movie files can move around freely. But a live concert, or a chair, or a summer stock show will never be free because they will never have zero marginal value.
…if I were to re-invent the system myself, it would provide a base share of the earth's bounty to everyone through some kind of redistribution… but it would also leave a free market system to function in order to create the opportunity for those who have the wherewithal to innovate to do so and find increased wealth in doing so. It would be a hybrid. What would your ideal system look like? How does a better system work?
[/quote]
I would not be so sure of that statement. Things become free to consumers when manufacturers figure out ways to extract means of payment irrespective of the commodity. Social media applications are a good example, but by no means the only example.
Many of these products are garnering the attention of much of Wall Street, these examples deserve more than a dismissive glance. The labor dynamics and cost models are disruptive to so-called conventional financial wisdom, these are not cherry picked examples selected to prove a point.
When Instagram is sold for $1 Bn and has but 12 employees, that ought to be a clue that this is far more complicated than can be interpreted by the usual grousing at the Federal Reserve narrative. The second clue might be the statistics in Rifkin’s article (quoted in post # 38) that claims for-profit firms grew in number by only ½%-1% over the ten year period from 2001 to 2011. This statistic is pretty shocking, and if true (I’d like very much to see some sources for this claim) is yet more compelling evidence that capitalism is broken, and broken badly.
Not everything is a referendum of free market forces vs. a centralized planned economy. I know of no one taking that side of the trade- but it sure makes a nice speech whenever someone dares to challenge the crumbling edifice of late stage capitalism.
Despite the great ideas of the armchair monetary revisionists, the business world and labor markets have their own motion. Substantial growth in non-profits is evident, companies formed with ESOP (employee shared) stock distributions are becoming more common, industrial co-ops are gaining popularity, and manifold alternate class structures are appearing at large scale, creating organizations that share surplus with employees.
You call for alternatives and hybrid approaches, Rifkin lists some, there are many others in addition to the above list. The mistake is attempting to reduce the definition of these arrangements to the syntax of “free market vs. centrally planned economy” this is absolutely false, no one cares about the means of exchange, there is no debate here, the workers are interested in the means of production - and an equitable distribution of the surplus.
Other forms of fulfillment or jobs if you will that do not include exploitation (or at least do not intrinsically require it) include sole proprietorships, other forms of self employment, family run farms and small businesses, etc. None of these are capitalist class structures, as opposed to Riyosaki’s suggested modality of rent seeking and debt based “entrepreneurship” implying employees that do not share in the surplus, with all the attendant valorization that goes with it.
Lots of thoughts on this one.
I've been a PP lurker for a long time, only recently have I started contributing. It's neigh impossible for me to put a value on what I've learned from Chris and other folks here. When I run things through the type of filters I've developed from this community it's made sense to invest in a homestead, land, water and business activities that seem to be anti-fragile with regards to many of the concerns folks share here. 20 years from now I may feel this was a great idea. Or a dose of chicken little. I actually hope it's the former in some ways as the implications of being "right" about much of this is a bit unsettling. At the minimum planting a potato tower with my 22 month old daughter, and thinking about how similar projects will be my route to teaching chemistry, physics and biology is pretty damn exciting. It's also developing some resiliency muscle for me in learning how to grow food in the high desert area of Reno. I'd not be doing any of this sans the PP community and what Chris and others have done, so a big hat-tip and "thank you." for that.
So, I've been involved with this paleo diet schtick for almost 15 years now. It's made some incredible impact on a lot of folks, particularly people with autoimmune or systemic inflammatory conditions. That's been very gratifying but I've "always" known that sustainability needed to be woven into this story…from food production to our medical system. We did a 2 year pilot study here in Reno implementing a paleo diet, sleep interventions, and smart exercise on a group of Police and Fire personnel we had identified as being at high risk for type 2 diabetes and audiovisual disease. The changes that occurred in this population is estimated to have saved the city of Reno $22million. We are working to scale this program and take it both national and international. The goal is to have transparent pricing from our testing lab partners and the whole program is hoped to be cash&cary or HSA compatible. The goal is to circumvent the moral hazard of the 3rd party payer system. I'm hoping this is applying Moore's Law to medicine and the ACA may end up making us look like a great alternative. That risk assessment is the scaffolding for a decentralized medical system AND food distribution/production system. We are working with the Savory Institute to bring their network of sustainable food producers in contact with the folks involved in this nascent medical system. It might flop, but I'm really hoping it is world changing.
I'm not mentioning all this as a "look at me! look at me" piece, but rather to address some of the earlier angst as to "are we doing enough?" I think it will make sense at some point.
I do a fair amount of fund raising for the Farm To Consumer Legal Defense fund. These folks do amazing work and they are tight with both Polyface Farms and the Savory Institute. I helped to push around (via social media) the recent FTCLDF membership drive. We had a great response from that but we had a few folks in Canada and the UK lamenting that they do not have a FTCLDF in their respective countries. I administered a fair amount of finger waging and guilting until both people agreed that if they wanted an organization like this, they should make it happen themselves.
THAT is entrepreneurship.
I've noticed that the folks who complain that "not enough being done" are NOT the regional head of a Savory institute Holistic Management hub, on the board of directors of their co-op etc.
Extinction is the rule of evolution, not the exception. We may very well go the way of the dinosaurs. That it'd be a consequence of our own industry might be a bit ironic vs a meteor strike, but the net effect will be the same. Instead of focusing on that eventuality however I'm trying to affect as much change, with the comparative advantage I have. I may be peeing in the wind, but it's my pee and the sunset ain't bad.
i wanted to express my thanks to the many of you who have expressed your caring heart felt thoughts and prayers and good wishes to me in the last few days. i'm hanging in there and will check in from time to time as my strength allows me. i'm a tough old bird.and will give it hell !
ferralhen
i agree with the concept to invest in something that returns something back… but scale must also be considered. unless you are one of the tyson brothers in northwest arkansas it takes 1-2000 acres of farmland to make a 6 figure income. agriculture is not a good choice to become wealthy, unless you can do it on a very large scale. an agriculture has a lot of natural risks involve because it is dependent on weather.having a homestead is a life of hard work and serfdom not a road map to becoming weathy. it can be a satisfying lifestyle and produce many other kinds of wealth besides financial ones.
i read roberts book when it first came out. my take away was it appeals to the middle class mentality to work hard and some day be wealthy…to aspire to be one of the rich. it's a pipe dream for most of us. no one ever writes rich dad poor dad when they are poor and starting out. only one of the very few who got lucky can write it. there are many reasons only a few make it to the one percent.
the concepts are not the only thing required to be successful at anything. it takes many other factors.
i do think it's always a good idea to know one's strengths and weakness'. and the payback for focusing on improving one's weaknesses can be equally important in succeeding in life.
becoming wealthy has never been one of my goals in life. i felt i would have had to lose my soul to do it… i am satisfied with my life choices so far and that is a wealth that is priceless.
ferralhen
somehow words got deleted and it should read:unless you are one of the tyson brothers, in northwest arkansas, you are not going to become wealthy from chickens.
fh
I have read many of the Rich Dad books and the general premise that Robert and his team expouse is, "get educated about financial matters, if you want to build your wealth." Sure he suggests that he has some of the best methods of getting that education and hopes to sell you those, but he doesn't say you must do it his way or you will always be poor.
The general message that Chris preaches is, "trust yourself because there are a lot of pieces to this exponential-growth puzzle that don't fit inside the laws of a finite world, and you probably won't be hearing about those pieces in the mainstream."
I have learned a lot from listening to each of these men and then "trusting myself" to use from that what fits my life circumstances. Neither of these guys say they know it all, and both are careful to say more or less, "This is what I'm doing and here are the results. If it is something that makes sense to you, you should try it. Otherwise do what you think is best."
To not listen at all is an option and may work for some, but so far, even with the podcasts that are about something I may think I'm not in agreement with or don't particularly find appealing I've found one or two gems that I can mine.
I guess it's the all-or-nothing mentality that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
SS
Robert has a philosophy identical to every CEO I have worked under for the last 20 years. His goal is to maximize his wealth and that of his tribe at the cost of anyone and everyone else. He focuses on the benefit and pays no mind to the cost.
This is exactly the mindset that is exacerbating our current dilemma. It is the mindset that results in the disparity in wealth distribution.
In order to project the proper image, or feel better about his lifestyle, he may make large charitable contributions and/or sponsor charities and encourage others to contribute, but the long and short of it is, he is a top of the pyramid taker with a capital T. There would be nothing wrong with that were it not for limits.
The reality is, it works well for Robert and his tribe, but not for anyone not in his tribe, or the planet.
We need a better model to base our lives on.
ChrisI think most of your reply to the thread was very truthful and thoughtful. We must get on in the world, and so we must purchase the things we need with money. I pay keen attention to what is broadcast on this site about how to maneuver my own personal finances through these changing times. I don't personally have a lot of knowledge about managing finances, and listening to the podcasts and reading the in depth pieces concerning the macro-economic picture here on PP has been a baptism of fire. I am grateful to PP for what I have been able to absorb. Like everyone else I don't want to lose what I have, or if I must lose, I will try to make sure it is the least possible. Also I appreciate the wealth of information for building resilience–learning to grow food, animal husbandry, etc…
However, I must say I share some of Joyce's feelings in regards to Mr. Kiyosaki. Something about this guy doesn't quite jive with what maybe a lot of people have found their way to this site for. I had some familiarity with him before listening to the podcast. He strikes me as a guy that not only understands the importance of money, but that is also "In Love" with money. He seems to really enjoy the power money gives him too. The anecdote you gave about him giving a public grilling of one of his employees reinforces that feeling. But hey, that's purely conjecture on my part, so let me give two concrete examples straight from his mouth of why I think many people at this site were put off by him.
First, he mentioned twice, I think, about owning golf courses out in the Phoenix area. Does irrigating golf courses in the Sonoran Desert make his community more resilient? It makes him wealthier, no doubt, but is it becoming the change we want to see? Let me be fair, however, and say that the ways in which I make money aren't all making the world a better place. I inherited a piece of land that is leased out to a fast food franchise, which is certainly not making my community any healthier. And the aesthetic of the whole commercial configuration of the area is enough to give James Kunstler a brain hemorrhage. But it is not something I started, and I am under the obligations of an extended contract.
Secondly, when someone starts quoting Ayn Rand I run the other way. I have read her book, Atlas Shrugged, so I am familiar with her philosophy. She was not a dumb person and she is not a bad writer, but she is not a major philosopher. People who are seduced by Ayn Rand I fear have not read very broadly or deeply in life. It is true that I myself have not read as broadly and deeply as I should, perhaps, but I feel I have read enough to know a second rate philosopher when I come across one. And her prescription for conducting life I find frightening. What she came from was a terrible system, but her equally extreme reaction to it is no recipe for life, or building a resilient community of mutual cooperation either I would argue.
And that leads me to a final point that I find disturbing about people like Mr. Kiyosaki. They have a certain, if not downright arrogance, an insouciant cocksureness that can be off putting. They feel they know everything because they've made a lot of money, when really all they know, perhaps, is how to make a lot of money.
Like anybody I can be completely wrong, but I've read the threads and have been moved to give an opinion, my second ever on PP. My first was a negative reaction to having Ann Barnhardt as a guest, and I can offer no apologies for an open dislike of her crazy shenanigans. But let me stress that the vast majority of guests and content on this site I find very enlightening and useful, and I extend a hearty virtual handshake to all who make this site possible!
Thank you,
soulinrevolt
While I am a fan of buying assets and being a master of the pieces it does not offer absolute protection from a correction or the big crash. Likely better than the head in the sand beavering away for the pay cheque approach. The big crash comes and the visitors to your hotel stop showing up and your asset can very quickly turn into a cash sucking liability of immense proportions. In the big crash scenario there are very few places to hide.
On the printing money thing: I am sure this is like talking to the converted but here goes. An economy is an energy conversion machine. It takes energy (the type we call useful work and the part we call food) and converts it to two things: tools and consumption. The tools (investments) either result in productivity improvements or end up as consumption when they don't work out. The productivity improvements are what makes prosperity happen or not. Thus, money, and I refer here not to the type fiat or otherwise but the function, is a proxy for an allocation of energy or an endorsement for a previous expenditure of energy. This is nothing new it is just obvious. Given that, then the control of the money supply should be slaved to the energy conversion capacity of the economy. You can take all the countries GDPs and compare them to their energy consumptions and they just completely line up. So slaving money to gold or silver or other precious metals is not rationale, it seems to get a lot of traction from history though. The total amount of gold extracted from the earth to date is about the size of an olympic swimming pool. Just cause it's rare and people like it shininess doesn't seem a sound rationale to base currency on it does it?
While this is not a widely debated topic in economic circles it is well known and acted upon. The whole energy security concern is all about this which is the powers that be spend considerable resources in assuring its access. The big issue is what kind of society emerges with a drastically reduced energy return ratio? The amount of surplus joy coming out of the current energy extraction industries is dropping like a stone so it's tolerance and sensitivity to/from mistakes and misallocations are dropping and increasing respectively. This dropping energy return ratio is going to result in reduced human impact on the environment as we will have less to play with. It likely also implies there will be less of us in the future. How that plays out is a long way from certain but the rules of civil society don't mean a lot when you are starving or think you will starve.
The management class has a big problem on their hands (the level of realization in the management class varies from country to country but most have their heads firmly planted in the sand in my view at any rate) and their level of greediness and indifference will play a large role in how a given society handles it.
[quote=ferralhen]jdye51 has written often and consistently on the theme of what does all this matter if you aren't here to do it? and why are we talkng out of one side of our mouths on the blog while living the polluting lifestyle that is killing us.and why aren't we addressing the real problems by real change in our lives, not just token one.
i've been an entrepreneur ,own a homestead, been part of the problem , been part of the solution.
i've recently be diagnosed with stage 3 cancer. now i'm part of the consequence.
ferralhen
[/quote]
Avemar or Ave or AWGE
http://naturalsociety.com/avemar-fermented-wheat-germ-kills-types-cancer-cells-fast/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22740002
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=avemar&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=4230146319&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15621588084513418730&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_7ea4u72qs4_b
I definitely have to agree with you, and the closer we are getting to this collapse, the more it seems that people refuse to open their eyes and accept it, let alone prepare for it.As my father used to say, "There is going to be a crying and gnashing of teeth".
My intention is to set aside emotion and simply state the facts of how Kiyosaki's teachings steered me toward being a more self-reliant and responsible person who now at 46 years old has complete autonomy with how I spend my time and energy. My personal experience with the Rich Dad books and program is not unusual and I've met many others who have similar stories. This is all true.
About twenty years ago I was unemployed, raising an illegitimate baby, receiving welfare, and living in one of the poorest areas of the country (Stockton, CA off 8-mile Rd). I was desperate. I heard Robert on the radio pushing his Rich Dad book and I was willing to try anything so I found a free copy. I learned about the financial rules that we all live under in this country. I learned how to arrange my affairs within these rules to keep more of what I earned. I learned the language of finance and how to ask questions and how to read financial documents. After reading the book, I found a group of people who played a weekly game of Robert's Cashflow game. I was fascinated by all the people I met who made money unconventionally, yet legally. The scales fell from my eyes and I realized that I could not blame my lack of income on a lack of a good job. A whole new world of options opened up to me. The point of Rich Dad is that rich kids learn the unlimited ways of making money while the rest of us think a job is necessary.
To keep this post succinct, I'll summarize the last twenty years and say that Robert Kiyosaki's teachings put me on a path of learning that includes starting two failed businesses, owning over a dozen rental homes, becoming an accredited investor, and with one partner, building a healthy multi-million dollar business that regularly wins industry awards.
Perhaps the most important thing I discovered is that entrenched institutions (e.g. government, Wall st.) are not going to tell me what's in my best interest and I must understand, on my own, the rules I am governed by and the options I have. If nothing else, Kiyosaki's programs are excellent for teaching us how the 1% got that way and how the financial rules we all must follow in the U.S. are heavily skewed toward making the rich, richer.
Just as Kiyosaki did twenty years ago, Martenson has recently brought me from ignorant to informed. I'm combining these programs with Adam's Book "Finding your Authentic Career" to create my ideal venture/adventure for the next 20 years. You can read about my experience with Adam's book here:
https://peakprosperity.com/discussion/82193/following-your-technique-adam
I am still in the early stages of imagining my own life un-tethered from the soul-crushing, EPS-driven, humanity-free creatures that large American corporations have become… I found your story inspiring.
Wildlife Tracker, something I started learning at 39 was Chi Kung. Tai Chi is a version of it with self -defence applications and a little more difficult. After enough practice, you feel the chi energy flowing through your body like a fluid. It builds up over the years and penetrates all of the body. It improves your physical health and with each new deepening of the energy there's a sense of progress and accomplishment. You could also teach it- valuable if medical help is'nt available. There are dvds, books. Or night courses.
Hang in there ferralhen, we're thinking of you! Oh! and if you're not tired of suggestions, check out " The China Study" book, as also should everybody worried about getting cancer etc.
Chris, we admire and value you as a moderate leader who's taken the responsibility of a necessary public stance on the big issues of the age and the planet, when nearly everybody else in public life avoided them…I'm sure most of us here are more than grateful.