Rifkin hones in on the easily defeated ideological model that is surrounded by neo-classical economics- of which Austrian theory is a major subscriber. According to this model, value is determined by the marketsWe are lucky to have someone here who is smart enough and wise enough to be in charge of the centrally planned non-free markets that will supercede our current version of (mostly) centrally planned "free" markets, because I am certainly not smart enough to run them. That being said, can I be in charge of yield maximization for the grinding up and recycling of retired industrial robots? I will post my control charts on the wall and we will run a lean 8s on the whole operation. Oh wait... maybe lean is not cool any more in our centrally planned labor maximizing and valuing future. I am so confused...so much to unlearn. Maybe I can just sharpen the robot grinder blades as needed...
thank you joyce, for your thoughts and prayers. and yes the future IS now for me. your version not chris's . i am part of NTE…i don't think i am an isolated case of cancer. cancer is stepping up to be the number one cause of death in america. i don't think it's turned out to be a nuclear war that i need to duck and cover from. it's the byproducts of multinational and local companies pursuing their own false sense of wealth that have dumped metric tons of toxic carcinogenic material in the land , waters and atmosphere. mankind has been so busy chasing an illusion of real wealth, and failing to notice that they are making the very things we need to survive toxic. we've been crapping on our cook stove and gardens.every time every one of you use a gallon of gasoline, you are killing me and yourselves and your families…whether you choose to see that, believe that. or know that. your thinking can not magically transform pollution into a harmless compound. and writing such thoughts are still just magical thinking and fooling only yourselves.folks i am dying from toxic greed. it does not matter what opinion you have…my body is eating itself from the inside out. you can't stop it. for me or your self or your wife or your children or your grandchildren.
modern technology failed to detect the cancer .technology is not the answer. the pollution is already in place. the damage done.the seeds of future damage half lifeing away for the next 28K years. this isn't dramatic. it's real. the surgeons knife is very real. i'm glad there still is one to go to.
i just got cancer before you did chris. and everyone of you out there. so my thoughts and prayers go to you, especially if you don't realize this kernel of reality that exists for us all.
joyce, i let my paid membership go a long time ago but i still swing by now and again, to converse with people like you . i hope in the future you aren't a stranger and swing by now and then to share your thoughts with us.
lastly i like you thoughts and actions joyce, to actively transform hope into acceptance, because that seems the most appropriate response to the predicament we the people finds ourselves in.
my true warrior spirit urges me on to a brutal 7 month assault of chemicals and radiation to try to prevent the cancer from spreading to my bones. but that will be it. futility lurks everywhere i look.
i know i might be temporarily cured only to have a new primary site of cancer… because i realize the world i live in has become toxic.too toxic for me to survive in in spite of my heroic efforts.
my best to all who care
ferral hen
ferral hen
Why yes, and as per Rifkin’s examples, the omnipotent free market forces have spoken…… And they have concluded that the value for much of the new commodities that consumes the not-so free time of the industrial worker is precisely……zero.
All this crowing about monetary systems and overreaching regulation comes to a screeching halt when a zero marginal cost commodity has to pay someone an income- so they can eat.
Damn details!
Once upon a time ago, I worked for a community hospital, funded by the local community. Somehow, it acquired a board of directors and ceased to be a community hospital. Then a giant healthcare conglomerate bought it out (at under-market price) and it became a for-profit, in order to capture other people's money in the form of shareholders. Then Bill Frist decided to run for president and all of a sudden, this exact same hospital had to be not-for-profit since it is easier to fund your run for president from not-for-profit accounting sleight-of-hand. So…my takeaway from all this is that when you are trying to get rich in less than scrupulous ways, gaming the system works pretty well.
And not-for-profit sounds far more benign than it might actually be.
We have lived by the assumption that what was good for us would be good for the world. We have been wrong. … live by the contrary assumption that what is good for the world will be good for us. Wendell Berry
This sounds remotely like a quote from Hitler. What an ego!
I vote HughK Asskisser of The Year Award!
I can't belief the foolishness here.
The problem with pubic entrepreneurism such as that of Robert's and Chris's is that it attracts undue attention. If one is ultra wealthy, one has security. But if one is wealthy but not extremely so, one is more vulnerable to security risks. If one is not wise, one increases one's personal risk considerably. For examp;e, Chris has mentioned making several large purchases from Tulving over the years. That tells you he has sizeable quantities of PMs. He's smart enough to know, if you don't hold it, you don't own it. Therefore, he does not have it in a safe deposit box or anyplace other than his home. That tells you where it is. In time of collapse, power will not come from wealth. Power will come from power. Who do you think will have more power? Someone with $10 million in assets or a team of well-trained, highly capable former military spec-ops who have the means to take that $10 million from someone who has it. They will go after easy targets. If you're advertising yourself and you're advertising your wealth but you are limited in your means of protecting it, you present yourself as an easy target. Take lessons from this situation people and don't make these same foolish mistakes.
and thus, as they say, location is everything.
Will never be worth zero.
Darbikrash said,
All this crowing about monetary systems and overreaching regulation comes to a screeching halt when a zero marginal cost commodity has to pay someone an income- so they can eat.You pick and choose your examples.... sure, music files and digitized movie files can move around freely. But a live concert, or a chair, or a summer stock show will never be free because they will never have zero marginal value. Maybe our whole problem is that we ascribe value to the wrong things.. maybe movie stars are really not worth $20M per production. Silly markets.. silly Bernays.
I don't disagree with you Darbikrash that everybody deserves to eat… if I were to re-invent the system myself, it would provide a base share of the earth's bounty to everyone through some kind of redistribution… but it would also leave a free market system to function in order to create the opportunity for those who have the wherewithal to innovate to do so and find increased wealth in doing so. It would be a hybrid. What would your ideal system look like? How does a better system work?
By the way… I want to note that it does feel weird talking about this econ stuff in this string, knowing that one of our own, Ferralhen, is stricken with cancer. Thoughts to her, and prayers that her immune system strengthens against her cancer, in conjunction with other therapies, are on their way from this Ann Arbor boy.
These were both difficult and beautiful posts to read. The pain of personal transformation is impacting us all. We are losing ourselves so that we might find ourselves. When all hope is lost, true hope can be found. When we die and fear disappears, we can start to live. When we become fearless, all things become possible. Those who seek to gain the world shall lose it, those who give up the world shall find it.
Thanks to those who shared their darkness so that the rest of us may bathe in their light. I offer my humble thoughts and prayers which are so little compared to those who shared their struggles here, thank you.
Nihil sub sole novum . Where is that damn channel changer?!
This thread has taken a life of its own;
Entrepreneurship: It makes sense to me but is really going to take some time to figure out. I know I have a mind of a flea. I have zero interest in being “rich”, but I do want to provide value to some community, without running through a corporation which has a soulless interior—(my car pool partner, who worked at this company I work for 20 years quit, giving his last two weeks. A week later they walked him out the door… soulless! ). I would like to believe I might make this transition in the future, but keep it small.
Wildlife Tracker: Great questions; I am sorry I don’t have any substantial answers.
TechGuy & Poet: you have some great advice on nuts and bolts entrepreneurship.
Kainu: you hit some chords with me about communities. I have narrow ideas how to even be an effective community member, let alone build one.
Joyce: I am trying to empathize, but my views are different. I do respect your view point; I want to hear it. My view is we humans will burn all the carbon we can get are hands on, and then then our major part in climate change, species killing, etc., is close to done and we will get what we get. We will go through a very rough time, for a long time, with some degree of depopulation and suffering, and then the earth will emerge on the other side changed somehow. The mushrooms will still be here, they have figured it out, they have eons of time figured out (well unless we go the way of Venus). I believe humanity on the earth is up to us, and yes we are misbehaving; but it is not over. Maybe people will go away, in a few hundred years and maybe not. I save the end of the life on earth for the time the sun goes red giant and burns up the earth in a billion years or so. Who knows, I might be dead wrong and all that. One thing is for sure, every year views can change; my views sure have.
RoseHip: I am tired of vampires and also tired of vampires trying to convert me to their cause all the time.
Ferralhen: Sorry to hear your diagnosis. I know very little about you, but I have been reading your comments. I just put a reminder on my calendar to think of you in three years. I can do this for you.
Chris: I agree, let’s do what we can to get there (wherever we end up).
WestCoastjan: I am OK with you going on your trip; burn that gas, and use some resources. Humanity is hell bent on burning all carbon and resources up anyway. Don’t feel too guilty, it is our destiny even if we would like it to be different. We are going to deal with the fallout regardless of our level of participation.
All of you, thank you for all of your valuable insights.
[quote=michael1]I can't belief the foolishness here.
The problem with pubic entrepreneurism such as that of Robert's and Chris's is that it attracts undue attention. If one is ultra wealthy, one has security. But if one is wealthy but not extremely so, one is more vulnerable to security risks. If one is not wise, one increases one's personal risk considerably. For examp;e, Chris has mentioned making several large purchases from Tulving over the years. That tells you he has sizeable quantities of PMs. He's smart enough to know, if you don't hold it, you don't own it. Therefore, he does not have it in a safe deposit box or anyplace other than his home. That tells you where it is. In time of collapse, power will not come from wealth. Power will come from power. Who do you think will have more power? Someone with $10 million in assets or a team of well-trained, highly capable former military spec-ops who have the means to take that $10 million from someone who has it. They will go after easy targets. If you're advertising yourself and you're advertising your wealth but you are limited in your means of protecting it, you present yourself as an easy target. Take lessons from this situation people and don't make these same foolish mistakes.
[/quote]
Michael, you are right, I am dumb.
I have a vision for how the future is going to unfold and I have given up both the means to make lots more money than being a modern version of Cassandra ever could, and I have given up my privacy in order to provide a (hopefully) useful model for others to at least see if not emulate.
That's the price of being a leader. You willingly put yourself in the crosshairs.
I see this all the time even at the most modest levels of leadership, there are those in the crowd who seemingly delight in putting arrows into leaders, but would never actually assume the reins themselves. It just comes with the territory.
Similarly, as you mention, there will be those who will not prepare themselves but who, in a time of crisis, seek to take from those who have prepared. That's exactly what the big banks and DC engineered for themselves in 2008/09.
I knowingly put myself in a position where people would critique and criticize and ridicule and even blame me for bringing the PP message to them and to the world. It comes with the territory and I knew that. In that sense some would call me dumb. But I've never shirked from doing what was right as I operate from a very central position of integrity…it's one of my highest values.
However, you are way off base to think that I have any of my PM wealth stored anywhere near my house. I do not. I may be willing at accept the normal slings and arrows of leadership, but I am not that dumb.
At any rate, none of us live forever and so I am living my life as if it were not a dress rehearsal. I want to be proud of what I've accomplished and for me that requires going out on a limb. Or whole set of limbs as I push myself in multiple directions. It's a lifestyle choice and I accept the consequences.
And thank goodness the world has a few folks like you Chris who are willing to act and provide a level of leadership that seems to be quickly disappearing from our social landscape.Kudos to you, to Adam and all of the participants of the Peak Prosperity community who are willing to think and act on their own self determinism and say it like it is. If a difference in the outcome is possible (and I think it is) it will be because of the kind of activity we find here.
Observation and initiative are cause points for change. Actions born out of fear produce re-actions which tend to be the same actions done again and again hoping the results will be different. I think Einstein was the one who defined the latter activity as 'insanity'.
Thanks again Chris for helping to create sanity here at Peak Prosperity!!
Coop
Are you bad? As much as any of us who take part in industrial society. As Ferralhen points out, we all bear the consequences of the toxins poured into the environment. Short term self-interest has trumped concern for the long-term viability of our home and we all pay the price one way or another.As you know, I don't see much of a future - if one at all, for all life not just humans. It was one thing for past failing civilizations as people could at least pack up and move elsewhere if the climate changed or the local resources were depleted. But it's global now. And despite Arthur's urgings that we leave this "gravity well", we are stuck with this one planet. So I don't see how we will survive this crisis and make a transition to some new kind of human organization, because the environmental conditions which we we require for survival will no longer be there. That's where we're headed. In your post, you say we're on the Titanic and that gruesome things are ahead. I would agree. We've hit the iceberg and are going down with no life boats and life jackets. But while part of the ship is still above water, there are those who hold on and deny the ship is sinking - until they can't anymore. Again, as Ferralhen points out, some of us are just sinking sooner than others is all.
Whatever the future holds, may we all meet it with courage and resourcefulness while we can. And acceptance when we can't.
Joyce
[quote=darbikrash]Always great to see your posts AP. I had to chuckle on the Jeremy Rifkin reference- this is exactly what I thought of when I read the transcripts from the podcast. I read this thread on Sunday morning, and within an hour read Rifkin's editorial in the Times, and was struck by the sense that one person was completely off the rails with obsolete thinking, and the other was dangerously close to making sense. I'll post the link here and let readers make up their own minds.
Link
As for the entrepreneur hitting it big with the next new idea? Mr. Kiyosaki might be better advised to suggest lottery tickets to his conference attendees, the odds are better and the exposure much lower.
[/quote]
Hi Darbikrash,
Nice to see your posts! I agree with you that the prospects for becoming a "successful entrepreneur' within the current paradigm, are no longer possible. It's not even a matter of thinking outside of the box. It's about being able to think 'within the sphere'.
We should imagine ourselves as being constrained within that sphere where we ricochet back and forth and intersect others, with our skill sets, at varying velocities, depending on our abilities. Imagine a philosophy of 'commerce' with that kind of closure built right in. No blue sky, no bullsh**.
As far as entrepreneurial spirit goes, so much of that depended when and where you were born, in the first place.
I had a poor dad who was paranoid about getting into debt and loathe to start his own business. It worked out okay for him, as it did for many of his generation. As 'poor' as he was, he was able to afford four kids and a stay-at-home wife on a fairly crummy salary.
My father would have preferred to take a risk and become a photographer, or maybe a journalist or stand up comedienne. He was a funny guy. But he wouldn't risk US to do it. For all of his glaring faults he had a deep sense of responsibility–and a secure job. He was definitely a bit of a drag to be around, but fair's fair.
Now I had a rich uncle, too. He was a BIG risk taker . He lived in a big beautiful house with his kids, just down the street from us. Loved him. Everybody did-- including his three kids, one just a few months old. I used to wish my poor dad was more like him; happier, not burdened with a monotonous life. I envied my cousins.
My father was funny (at times) but my rich uncle was engaging and FUN. His daughter, my cousin, Bev, was my age and she worshipped the ground that man walked on. They were a team.
One day his family woke up and my rich uncle, was gone. Vanished. He became bored with his life and everyone in it, and unlike my poor dad, set off seeking freedom and excitement!!
And guess what that poor rich man did to finance his risky adventure? He sold the house out from under my aunt without her even knowing it–because giving her a heads-up would have been, you know…awkward. And he didn't do awkward.
This was decades ago when a Canadian wife wasn't automatically on title. A house was considered the property and responsibility of the husband and her signature wasn't required to sell it.
So how about my rich uncle, huh? Did he have cajones, or what??
Oh and btw, moral of the story…my rich uncle actualized himself right into prison a few years later for white collar crime. Oh, the poor rich man!
I read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" several years back. To be honest, it all came across like a pyramid marketing scam where the "secrets" would be revealed if you only purchased products A, B and C. I never understood what all the hype was about. Then, I saw Robert and Kim on a PBS special a couple of years after that, and it was the same schtick. They talked at length about how important their message was, how it would transform your life, but they didn't really say anything. It was all a marketing ploy.
But all that's even beside the point. The way that Robert Kiyosaki came across in his own words in the book was someone to whom financial wealth and status were the most important things to strive toward. In short, it strikes me in retrospect as almost completely opposite from the mission at Peak Prosperity. So, I was rather perplexed to see Robert Kiyosaki as the most recent interviewee on the podcast. And I'll readily admit that I didn't listen to the podcast, because to be quite honest I wasn't really interested in hearing anything that Mr. Kiyosaki had to say. I felt like I already had wasted enough of my finite time on this earth on his "message", time that I couldn't get back.
After reading through all of the posts on this thread, I keep going back to a quote from Wendell Berry in his televised interview with Bill Moyers last year.
The question we should be asking isn't, "Will it be successful?" The question we should be asking is, "What does this earth require of us?"I think there's a stark difference between what Mr. Kiyosaki promotes and what Mr. Berry is voicing here. And one of the aspects of that difference is that Mr. Berry's approach does not preclude being an entrepreneur of sorts, taking control of your own life. I think that Chris, by developing the Crash Course and PP, is an example of that in a way. I'm trying to do it in my own life, finding niches to apply my skill/knowledge as a license professional engineer with permaculture principles to capture and use "waste" like stormwater runoff and wastewater instead of looking at it as a problem to be gotten rid of.
However, Mr. Kiyosaki's approach (at least how I've interpreted it) is pretty much incompatible with this quote from Wendell Berry.
Now, I don't blame Chris at all for following up with Robert and Kim Kiyosaki if it helps to spread the message of Peak Prosperity, because it's a message that needs to be spread beyond the choir. But at the same time, I personally don't look to people whose primary focus seems to be accumulating financial wealth for themselves as opposed to creating real value for the earth and others as people I want to emulate in any way.
So my takeaway from Rich Dad Kiyosaki is the following:
- invest in assets that generate an income stream, rather than liabilities that consume them
We think the same thing here. Fruit trees produce an "income stream", so does a garden, a group of cows, and a flock of chickens. These are producing assets, good things to spend your "money" (time, energy, etc) on. They'll produce income for a large number of years, if managed properly.
But if we plant grass, that's a liability. It may look nice, but it requires water and energy to mow, weed, and re-seed every now and then, but provides no "income" in return. Grass is a liability. Don't plant grass, unless you happen to have "money" to burn and don't mind dropping some on a "consumer product" like grass.
In fact, long ago it was the aristocrats who had so much wealth, they could show it off by using their land to plant grass - "see I'm so rich, I don't need my land to be productive at all", while the poor farmers wouldn't do that, since they had to use every bit of land to grow food.
I think sometimes people can get focused on the specifics of what he's talking about and miss out on the deeper meaning. Perhaps it is just too simple, and he's guilty of making it complicated and turning it into a multimillion dollar business. But really - the message is, put your capital to work on something that will give you an ROI. That's how you get "rich" - meaning, you pull in enough "income" to become "independently wealthy" (i.e. able to eat from your garden, your nuts and fruits, and your eggs from the chickens).
And if the ROI is relatively secure, think about using Other People's Work (perhaps additional workers who didn't have the same foresight you did) to leverage your returns - assuming you can do this without placing your personal assets at risk.
Just think of what he's saying as a metaphor and it will all make sense.
I hope you have family and friends to help you out during this trying period. Keep us posted on your progress.Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
NN
I'm always afraid I or someone close will be the next one in line. It's the world our children are inheriting. Not pretty.