Just shaking my head. I had an instinctively negative response to that cold frightful woman.
Chris,
First, I wanted to commend you for having the guts to discuss spirituality and your personal journey in such a public forum.
Several times you mentioned the challenge you face in countering people's false belief systems. I can relate! I suspect this post may ruffle some feathers, as I've noticed that (in general) it's OK to talk about spirituality, but once the name of Jesus is mentioned…well, emotions rise 
I'm grateful for the PP community's ability to discuss/debate in an intellectually honest and respectful manner.
Approx 10 yrs ago, I set out to discover if the "truth claims" made by Christianity could be supported by empirical evidence, or were mere myth created by man over the centuries. What I discovered was astounding, in that there is overwhelming archeological, manuscript, and scientific data supporting the truth claims of Christianity. You could fill a library w/ the data/evidence, but suffice it to say that it is clear that Jesus Christ existed, his death/burial/resurrection are the most documented events of antiquity and those that claimed to have seen him after his resurrection chose to endure death rather than deny seeing their risen Lord. For me, after a meticulous study of the evidence, I determined that it takes more faith to not believe than to believe the basic tenets of Christianity. A book titled, The Case for Christ is a great primer and was the book that set me on the course of study that I'm still pursuing today.
On a spiritual level, having a personal relationship w/ Christ has given me more peace about the future, direction and guidance in life than I ever imagined possible.
**Disclaimer: I do NOT subscribe to the "FoxNews / NeoCon / Warmonger / Bomb all of MENA, ask questions later / Israel can do no wrong / George Bush is my Hero! / Drill Baby Drill! / etc :)" brand of supposed Christianity that has hijacked the true message of Jesus, the Prince of Peace.
I hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers, but felt led to share my thoughts.
Steve
Psychopath is what I thought too. I'm disappointed in this turn of things…
Hi Chris,
As a person who was in the middle of the incident you reference re Mr. Kiyosaki I just wanted to clarify something. My concern at that time was not about his involvement in leveraged golf courses but rather concerns over allegations of improper activities by Kiyosaki, as shown under the Wikipedia entry for his name, under the sub-heading "Criticism and Controversy". My concerns as a devoted PP member was that you and Adam were getting into bed with a questionable person in order to grow the business. The whole golf course thing became a sidebar to the main point as the discussion deteriorated, from my standpoint.
Fast forward to this podcast, which I have appreciated greatly, and I note that had the intro/message in this podcast been present in the Kiyosaki podcast, then perhaps that kerfuffle would never have happened. So I guess we both learned something. But it was a crying shame that it happened for PP lost some very good women participants over that incident, women who I think can and did bring balance to comment threads. I still miss them here, even though we are in touch away from PP.
We all learn as we go, we make mistakes, and if we have some emotional intelligence we learn from those mistakes. The salient point for me in this podcast, regardless of what people think of Teal Swan, she has enough insights to make one think deeply, provided one is willing to think deeply, and do the personal work.
I always marvel that people are willing to work ridiculous long hours for monetary gain yet are hard pressed to spend an hour just thinking about life, who they are and what matters. The latter is a much better investment, but our society does not yet realize that as it is still stuck in the old mindset.
Chris, I am really glad to see you on this path. It reaffirms who I thought you were before the Kiyosaki thing blew up.
Jan
You said,
I always marvel that people are willing to work ridiculous long hours for monetary gain yet are hard pressed to spend an hour just thinking about life, who they are and what matters. The latter is a much better investment, but our society does not yet realize that as it is still stuck in the old mindset.Amen to that. Thank you.
So that was cool. It's such a "tough sell" in our culture to get folks to just totally sell out and get down into the squishy hard-to-put-words-on work of self inquiry. But the rewards are remarkable and IMO anybody who's serious about really inhabiting and living this life needs to do this sort of work.
She doesn't seem to have any revolutionary approach or insight, but one could do worse that follow her prescriptions vis-a-vis personal inquiry, self-work, and getting really unblocked around things that are lurking in one's shadow.
(For the purposes of this post I am using the word shadow is a more-or-less Jungian way – the shadow is disowned parts of ourselves that we refuse to acknowledge. They hamstring us, they rob us of energy, then keep us from really BEING…until we get in there and [1] see them, [2] acknowledge them and [3] integrate them. Simple goog search will offer more [and likely more useful] information about this, but suffice it to say you can't really know yourself until you get right in this way.)
I have found that integrating my shadow bits is exhilirating, and the amount of energy freed up by not having to carry all that $h!t around anymore made plenty of mojo available for other things, like prepping and building a new business and learning to play the ukelele.
For those that find the messenger in this podcast gives them the squicks, please pay mind to the words an ignore the person speaking them. Would you refuse a nutritious sandwich just because somebody you don't like made it?
Viva – Sager
I challenge you to reconsider political correctness. It is pretty much on par with a lot of other things politicians think are a good idea.
Stereotyping is a necessary tool for every day existence. I regularly apply it to snakes and bugs to avoid painful and dangerous encounters. Heck, I approach dogs differently depending on breed. I suspect you do also.
I try to treat everyone with dignity and respect, but where caution is concerned, I consider dress, demeanor, size, sex and yes, race.
When I am queued up to board an airplane and a 5 foot tall 100 lb 85 year old woman in front of me is randomly singled out for a more thorough search as a means of avoiding any form of profiling, I know we've lost our way.
Yes, everyone is racist, to an extent and should be. I'm less so than many.
[quote] gives them the squicks [/quote]
My new word for the day!
I hadn't heard of this woman before this podcast. My reaction was a mixture of "of course, of course" for some things she said, and "wow, what a self-important nut case" for others. I listened to the podcast rather than watching, so I wasn't reacting to her appearance.
I don't remember having the "nut case" reaction to any other PP podcast.
It made me sad to scan some of the things that turned up in the Google search.
Chris,
You said you are in the belief-changing business and asked Teal for advice on the best way to communicate to enable shifts in belief. I think you're already doing the most important thing you can do - the most powerful tool you have is leading by example - and you demonstrated that again here.
The Crash Course data is the negative (albeit important) side of the equation which highlights all the ways in which we as humans on this planet have gone astray. But in order to create the positive side, a new narrative is necessary - a clear vision we can work towards. Being willing to not only do the hard work of acting in accordance with that narrative in your personal life, but also being transparent about it and sharing it on PP with all its inherent risks, is a powerful example and one that I think is tremendously valuable.
Personally, I visit PP because it’s motivates me to be better in my own life. Like many here I live in two worlds, but the incentives and social inertial all pull me towards business as usual which does not fulfill me. I use the examples and ideas expressed here to try to align my actions with my personal nascent vision of a world worth inheriting. It's a messy process, and sometimes just a daily grind. Seeing vulnerability in others is actually comforting and encouraging because it makes it easier for me to forgive my own perceived weaknesses and keep pressing forward. The PP community in general acts as a form of social inertia pulling me towards a better way of doing things.
All of which is long winded way of saying don’t mind the naysayers. To broach this subject and to publicly show your process was courageous, and I believe that kind of trail blazing example is the best way to teach, inspire and lead. Any quibbles with the details of this podcast are in some ways besides the point - it's the process of doing the work that really matters, messy or not.
Keep up the good work.
Excellent interview Chris
I can sort of agree with fgdore (comment 18). Lineage and the structure of a proven system can be tremendously valuable if pursing a deep exploration - many times a profound state has been mistaken for ultimate realization, or so I have heard.
But hey, we're not selecting a guru here, we're listening to a podcast. And it was the best one in quite a while IMHO.
So lets keep the theme going. I can't wait to see who you come up with next.
Teal Swan seems to be on a journey like the rest of us. I would think that she grew as a person during Chris's masterful interview. I learned a lot.
My spiritual "task" at the moment is to try to give something to everyone I encounter and leave a "trail of smiles" behind me as I go. The more I do this…The more I notice others making the same effort.
I really like this guide as it mirrors my own process and understandings. Therefore I liked it! :)
Here are my comments to your excellent post:
Comment to above: Yes, it does take resource. I suppose that biologically we might be wired to avoid such shifts because they are energetically expensive. Not just in raw calories, but also in alertness and outer awareness.
Back when survival was more marginal it would make sense for nature to wire us up to take the easiest path, not the harder one.
However it came about, I have great and growing compassion for the difficulty of being in what we call in our household "the tunnel." When in "the tunnel" everything seems harder, vision is crimped, and it feels sometimes as if nothing will ever get better. It can be a tough place to be, especially if one does not have the external and internal resources to assist along the way.
Which brings us to:
- Knowing how to create a strong healing context before diving in. Going where the pain is without finding the strength of your being - or that of a healing companion - first is asking for overwhelm, not healing.Yes, yes, and yes! Having a support structure is really helpful and sometimes essential. For example, there are different wounding patterns we receive in childhood and the one that happens first in life (0-18 months of age) is a wound of (mis)connection and that one requires moving very slowly and carefully. Overdoing it simply restimulates the wound that can be retraumatizing rather than healing.
So having the healing context before diving in is really a very good idea.
And having your team in place is critical too. My best healing involves my mind, body and spirit (or energy, or chi, or lifeforce, or whatever term you prefer) and for each of those I draw upon different people. Which brings us to:
- The ability to be with an overwhelmed person without blocking, discounting or believing their distress. This requires that we have done the same with our pain and know it is a safe process.My advice is to only have people in your support team that have already begun their own work. they will have a greater capacity to 'hold space' for you meaning they will simply be with you, and not be interjectingng their own ego and wounds into your process. This is not a malicious thing, but it happens all the time, in my experience.
One example is based on the work of Alice Miller (author of The Body Never Lies) where she notes that many therapists in her psychological profession unconsciously and covertly steer their patients towards forgiving someone in their past, especially a parent. This is because our culture is heavily built around the forth commandment (Honor they father and mother) and it's taken to be an article of faith that it's essential that one be able to forgive their parents and thereby heal the wounds.
But Ms. Miller's view is that sometimes parents do really awful things that really have no better explanation than "that was a really messed up thing for them to do to you. Full stop." and the inner child does not need to be convinced to forgive them but instead needs a compassionate witness. With such an ally the wounded inner child can begin to find safety and healing.
So now one of my litmus tests is to only work with people who can hold space for me and my process and do not have the inner need for me to be any particular way towards or about anyone or anything in my past (because that's what helps their ego feel more powerful or avoid facing something uncomfortable for it).
That's what works for me.
Next:
- Getting the distinction between feeling emotions and acting out/believing them. Feeling emotions is painful, but safe. Acting them out or believing them is less painful and very unsafe.Great insight here. Ekhert Tolle was instrumental on getting me started down the path of separating my emotions from my reactions to those emotion via a process of developing an inner witness. I still have the emotional storms but now I also have an inner voice that is curious and detached. This allows my reactions to become separated from the emotions whereas before they were one and the same and TRUE! (goddamnit!).
Being curious allows me to bookmark the reaction and follow that thread later to see where it came from.
Being detached allows me to uncouple the experience from the emotion from the reaction.
There's so much more to say, but I'll stop there.
After re-reading what Chris has written on this subject, I realize that I have been on pretty much of a parallel journey to his over the last eight years or so. I read many books - I got lots of great concepts, but for me, the thing that helped most was learning specific tools (roughly, "healing techniques") for how to address problems and situations in which I found myself. Its great to read about "what life potentially could be", but without a specific process for how to get there from here, it felt like I was just viewing a mirage from across a very large desert, without any clear way to get there from here.
But now I feel as though I have a set of tools that not only did I lack before - I didn't even realize they existed, nor did I understand what was even possible. Its like magic, compared to where I was before.
Most importantly, my free will remains uncompromised; nobody tries to control what I do, who I talk with, I don't need to feed cash into someone's "system", I don't need to drink the kool-aid, but help is there if and when I need it. That's what works for me.
First let me say, fgdore, thank you for sharing your experience and input.
I will note though, that where you have a BS meter I have a very strong "projection detector" and what you posit below I experience as tilted more towards projection than 'observation' (which sounds clinical and possibly data driven.
[quote=fgdore]
Having myself worked with people as an integrative medicine physician for 35 years, a have developed a strong BS meter.
My observation in listening to this talk is that Teal is far from integrated herself and playing a seduction game…
[quote]
To say that Teal is BS because you project that she's not integrated (enough?) for you to trust, leaves me wondering and with my own projections.
The biggest of them is that I have a projection that my culture, and a lot of European culture has it all wrong about seduction. You say "seduction game" like it's a bad thing and I'm going to push back on that.
It's not a bad thing at all, but instead a big missing element in our lives. This TED talk gets right to the heart of my beliefs on the subject:
I would strongly encourage Chris to invite people that are part of a long tradition that monitor's their process and progression along the path, and are not self promoting.I too would encourage everyone to check out a very wide range of teachers and use the ones that work for them. Discernment is the key word here.The world abounds in self promoting gurus that are smart and seductive.
I will mention one for those interested, who is very accessible and has followed the Buddhist path.
Her name is "Pema Chaudron".
Here too I will challenge your view that there's something more authentic about someone like Pema, who is a fantastic teacher with many good things to say. But to say she and other Buddhists are not self-promoting is not at all accurate. Of course they are! And they should be!
Here too I will take the other side and say there's nothing wrong with being self-promoting because otherwise nobody will hear about you. Pema used to come to nearby "guru centers" like Kripalu and Omega all the time and I know because the events were heavily promoted.
By her own admission she wears special spiritual clothes, changed her name from Deidre Bloomfield to something more spiritually aligned for her and has a special haircut. That is, there's something in manifesting her outer appearance that is important to her inner and outer work in the world.
Again, nothing at all wrong with that. I have no problem with that. But if I were to apply a different "BS meter" to that I could easily tear her down if I wished to for some reason (like being threatened by her for some reason).
Teal has won my trust largely because she is 100% open about why she dresses seductively (it makes her feel good and she likes the attention) and she talks about her troubles and failings as a human all the time, and does not perch on a chair in front of a room saying she's above all that and has all the answers.
Here's a recent piece from her blog (Mar 16, 2016)…this is full of the sort of humanity that I find utterly missing from Ekhert, Pema, and other hugely valuable teachers to me. The part in bold invites me to be more human myself, to be more vulnerable, and to be more open.
In a previous blog where I revealed the theme of this year I said, “Let yourself and your life be stripped clean. The theme that is the most dominant this year is purification. This year will be the year for purification on a mental level, on an emotional level and on a physical level.Isn't that great? A spiritual teacher not afraid to say "hey, I struggle too and experience pain and loss and moments of extreme self-doubt."Despite this purification theme, I have been trying to keep a very precious friendship of mine together for nine months. This week all attempts to resolve the conflict made the conflict worse and the friendship ended. Regardless of the more objective truths that say, “no relationship can end because we are all one”, the more subjective experience of my life feels the pain of the loss.
Part of me knows this ending is in accordance with the theme of the year and is somehow meant to be. The other part of me has temporarily succumb to a disheartening feeling that if someone like myself (with all the awareness and tools I have at my disposal) can’t resolve a conflict with someone in my own life, there is no hope whatsoever for other people on this earth. It has made war on our planet seem unavoidable.
Over the years I have observed that it is the intention with which a conflict is approached that makes all the difference. All too often we have different intentions going into it so we can never find a meeting of minds.
In the beginning of my career I used to jump at the opportunity to address people’s grievances about me. I’d try to resolve the issue with people who made up their mind about me, slandered me on the internet or posted disapproving comments about me. Long story short, it was a short-lived endeavor. I discovered the hard way that not everyone enters into a conflict with the desire to re-connect and resolve the conflict.
When the human ego goes into a state of defense, because it perceives you to be a threat, it becomes rigid. Relationships involve the inevitability of rupture and the degree of security and joy felt within a relationship is really about our capability to create repair. People, who cannot repair ruptures in relationships, cannot do so because they feel power and control over others is safety. When conflict arises, their ego (which is in a state of fear) immediately seeks to win or to punish the other. Their ego seeks to stay safe and survive by being right, justified, good, and victorious so that the other person is the one who is wrong, unjustified, bad and loses.
This dynamic is where the game of conflict resolution ends. It ends because the people involved are playing two different games with two entirely different goals. It’s a bit like trying to build a house of cards with someone who is determined to play a game of battleship. And it starts to feel like no matter what you do, you cannot win. There must be vulnerability for there to be conflict resolution. But vulnerability is enemy #1 according to the human ego.
Conflict is both the invitation to expand our consciousness and the potential cause of complete destruction. Like a root that can either grow a fragrant flower or a poisonous weed depending on how it is tended. If it is poorly tended, it is the root of the damage that we do to each other on this earth. It is the heart of war. It is the destroyer of connection and as such, it ruptures relationships.
(Source)
This is the part of authentic leadership that I think I could learn a lot from. This is a piece of insight I've not gotten from any other teacher out there yet, except as advice. Teal is modeling it, which is, so far in my experience, unique.
The part in italics in her piece I also find compelling because I still find myself wanting to jump to my own defense from the many critics I have on the internet and especially, and painfully, right here on my own website.
But she's right…not everyone has a desire to resolve a conflict…some are simply there for the conflict.
That's the purpose. So I simply don't respond to these people anymore, but I still struggle with the reaction to defend myself…and that becomes a thread I can follow to find out where that particular "need" comes from and discover if it can be shifted.
Beautiful words Chris and if its working for you then I'm a big fan. For me you already peaked, there is nothing better than those that support Charles Eisenstein and his work, who is a favorite teacher of mine! So it hasn't surprised me of this part of you, although I am pleasantly surprised by the risk taking included to do it with this medium. I'm sure that hints at some part of your work that is to coming… You have my best wishes and unwavering support.
A lot of the conversation was spiritual and psychology oriented and outside my areas of interest.
However, a vein of the discussion blamed our current predicament on consumption again, specifically private land ownership. There was no mention, that I recall, about population and overshoot. Any world view that doesn't at least consider 7.3 billion humans and overshoot is, in my opinion, incomplete.
Frankly, I don't want to be forced into communal living solely to accommodate people procreating irresponsibly.
Lots of warm and fuzzy discussion and beyond the pale of my peasant perspective. While slogging through the trenches, many of us, only reflect on the bigger picture if prompted by a sunset or soaring eagle on a summer's day.
Ultimately, it is not an issue about me, but rather, its about WE. Unless you are a member of the psycho/sociopathic 5%, the rest of us are more concerned about family, community and society than our own personal space. Revolutions occur on a regular basis after the necessities of our finite world are in short supply due to over consumption or greed by the select few. Does it surprise any of us that the developed world continues to widen the gap on the bell curve? Trump verses Sanders; I wonder if the symptoms are right there in front of our face. Where are my suspenders, black hat and buggy when I need them.
Thank you Chris for your response to my comment.
This is an important topic.
Yes we all do project and I am in no way immune to this fundamental human behavior.
What had me decide to intervene and share my impression was the discrepancies between what Teal was saying and her body language. Of course this is personal interpretation and it belongs to me. I did choose to speak, to somehow possibly protect those more vulnerable to a form of seduction that I consider overly self interested. Not that seduction, as a game with lightness and playfulness is of no interest.
I'm addressing the issue of seduction as a form of domination for self serving purposes.
My experience of Pema and other teachers of similar lineages is that they are not using charm for the purpose of self aggrandizement but for the purpose of supporting others in freeing themselves of suffering.
I have never met through the years, a genuine awakened teacher that speaks of his own illumination.
Usually these are words that others will use when in the presence of such people.
I think I posted a link to this article a while back.
There's more to read than the snip below, but these comments were really interesting to me.
Weisman travels to several countries with moderately to very high fertility rates. When he asks people in these countries what should be done to bring down the numbers, mostly the answer is “Nothing.” In Niger, in the village of Mailafia, he encounters a mother of eight who laments the lack of milk in her town. “All we want is food so we can produce children,” she exclaims. Also in Niger, in the city of Maradi, he meets an imam who tells him, “We know the future is alarming. But man cannot hold back doomsday.” In the Israeli city of Brei Brak, Weisman meets another mother of eight. She tells him she’s not the least bit concerned about the world’s burgeoning population, because “God made the problem, and He will solve it.” At a clinic in Karachi, Pakistan, he meets a technician who refuses to administer the contraceptive injection that one of the clinic’s patients has just been prescribed. “I don’t believe we should practice family planning,” the technician says. “Our community should increase in number.”Yeah mon, no worries.
Sorry for the interruption.
I've known of Pema's work for a long time she and I having had a common teacher, Trungpa Rimpoche.
I can tell you with confidence that Pema is not very interested in self promotion.
Groups like Omega institute and publishers are the ones that recognize the value in her work and decide to promote it. She, being interested in being of service to others, will go with the flow and accept the promotional support if the intentions are aligned with hers.
I am weary of people that define themselves as "spiritual teachers" outside of some lineage. There are exceptions though and I do not have a crystal ball.
I have experienced teachers that had declared themselves enlightened and were far from that.
In the late seventies, I became in contact with a group offering what was then called the 'Est training"
This organization was then quite large and internationnaly known.
I was then very impressed with their ontological approach into experimenting the nature of "being human"
So much that I approached the founder and expressed my interested in becoming a trainer for his organization if I was first offered the privilege of working closely with him as an assistant to see if my foot fit the shoe.
I was invited to do so and did for a while until It got really clear for me he was not what he was promoting himself to be. He was a very ego driven individual, strongly motivated by power over others.
Not long after I left he was accused by his family of having sex with his daughters and was ejected by his peers.
Very few people would have suspected such an outcome. He was adulated by many and considered a through spiritual leader.
I am of the opinion that caution and discernment are useful in the promotion of spiritual leaders.