Teal Swan: The Role Of Spiritual Resilience

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41

Sorry for the interruption.
I've known of Pema's work for a long time she and I having had a common teacher, Trungpa Rimpoche.

I can tell you with confidence that Pema is not very interested in self promotion.

Groups like Omega institute and publishers are the ones that recognize the value in her work and decide to promote it. She, being interested in being of service to others, will go with the flow and accept the promotional support if the intentions are aligned with hers.

 

I am weary of people that define themselves as "spiritual teachers" outside of some lineage. There are exceptions though and I do not have a crystal ball.

I have experienced teachers that had declared themselves enlightened and were far from that.

In the late seventies, I became in contact with a group offering what was then called the 'Est training"

This organization was then quite large and internationnaly known.

I was then very impressed with their  ontological approach into  experimenting the nature of "being human"

So much that I approached the founder and expressed my  interested in becoming a trainer for his organization if I was first offered the privilege of working closely with him as an assistant to see if my foot fit the shoe.

I was invited to do so and did for a while until It got really clear for me he was not what he was promoting himself to be. He was a very ego driven individual, strongly motivated by power over others.

Not long after I left he was accused by his family of having sex with his daughters and was ejected by his peers. 

 

Very few people would have suspected such an outcome. He was adulated by many and considered a through spiritual leader.

I am of the opinion that caution and discernment are useful in the promotion of spiritual leaders.

42

This interview was such a refreshing change of pace. I am a longtime reader/subscriber (but never comment) and I greatly appreciate Chris delving into spirituality as an important part of resilience, and sharing his own journey. I can imagine that Teal made a lot of people feel uncomfortable, as the topics discussed are so often taboo in our dominant patriarchal/analytical world.
That said, there are numerous podcasts on this site that do not interest me in the least. Sometimes I listen to them and often learn something. Sometimes I don't bother. As Chris said, we can practice discernment and use what resonates with our personal experience.

In any case, being female, highly intuitive and empathic, and deeply involved in spiritual awakening for nearly twenty years, this interview brought me to tears because it was finally something I could relate to. Thank you for a perspective from someone other than a middle aged white guy (please note, I am saying this tongue in cheek and mean no offense. But that's often what it feels like on this site). 

I am really bad at debating and arguing my point, which is why I never comment. I am posting this comment in the spirit of 'we need more diverse voices talking about resilience' so here goes.

43

Tikky2:
Thanks for your post.  I hope it is the first of many more.  We middle aged (for me well past middle age) white guys could benefit from hearing other points of view.

JT

44

For me, there were two halves of the talk;

  • First Half - About Systems (capitalism and socialism)
  • Second Half - About the individual (responsibility and leadership)
Honestly, I didn't much like the first half - talk of socialism generally makes me nervous (Hayek's 'Road to Serfdom' explains it better than I can).

However, the second half I liked a lot; especially the part about individual responsibility and leadership (Rosa Parks example). I know Teal erred on the side of caution regarding ego but the feeling of indignation comes from a recognition that someone has violated your rights. I think a sense of empathy may also help protect the natural world better if our feelings extend that far. Ultimately, she is correct in saying whoever starts building an alternative system (i.e. one that works) is in for a lot of flak.

In summary I think she has a clear grasp of the problems (individual greed/need for recognition causing destruction), but seeking an answer in socialism generally means someone with a lot of influence gets to write rules which favour their own agenda.

Anyway, I'll stop there as I realise T2H said it better than I.

 

 

 

45

If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s--- Joseph Campbell

So I decided to practice vulnerability today, and try authentic.  To me spiritually is quite close to ones belief systems, and how they change.   We will see how being authentic goes, seems like PP gets a eye full from me today.  I know in the end it is all about 'we', but we all got to start where we are at, right?

The podcast was good; much I agreed with most of it at some level.  Belief systems and such things are incredibly hard, my personal creed on spirituality and beliefs is I speak for me and you speak for you.  I don't do prophets or preachers or family members who speak to God and have God's answers for me. (all the stories that I should not tell!)

“God is a comedian playing to an audience that is too afraid to laugh.”― Voltaire   

Here is something I wrote to myself a while back about how I see/believe:

"My belief is if I ask Mother Nature something, she will tell me if I ask nicely and in a correct method.  She owes me nothing and she gave me everything.  If you want to play with the outer world God, my strongly held option is that you are then dealing with Mother Nature, Gaia, she has many names.  You can ask her questions, but it has to be in her language. “The cosmos speaks in patterns” –Heraclitus.  If I get arrogant with Mother Nature she will beat me down, she is good at that.  And best of all Mother Nature keeps trillions of secrets “Things love to conceal their true nature” –Heraclitus.  She always has another puzzle to solve and I love her for it.  She is there when you look in a microscope or a telescope. She allows herself to be predicted in physics equations. She emotionally bonds offspring to parents for the survival of the offspring.  She will atomize you if you fly into to the sun like Icarus. She does not bend for you, you bend for her, she is the true outer world God."

As Time2help pointed out it all belongs to Her in the end. Mother nature can speak for herself (i.e. good data) and if you are ignorant or ignoring it then She will burn your wings.  The biggest reason I come to the PP website is that, for the most part, emotions run high but in the end the data from nature wins out on the dogma most the time.  Thank you for that.     

On aspect of human nature that spirituality deals with, is the really tough business to face one's 'shadow'. It came up a time or two in the discussion.

“The worst sickness of men tends to originate in the sentimental way they try to combat their sicknesses. What seems like an easy cure, in the long run produces something worse than what it's supposed to overcome. Fake consolations always have to be paid for with a general and profound worsening of the original complaint.”― Friedrich Nietzsche

“There is no coming to consciousness without pain.  People will do anything, no matter how absurd in order to avoid facing their own souls.  One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious” – Carl Jung

For me over the last several years spiritual work has equated to shadow work, or unlocking that part of myself that my culture deems inappropriate or shameful.  It is centered in my nature is a need for connection to others.  We will die  with out connection to other humans, it is really that simple, that is our nature.  I am in Utah, a Mormon, and I believe Joseph Smith wrote the book of Mormon, and have for over 15 years.  This belief makes me a heretic in many Mormons eyes.  This is just one example which will only likely offend other believing Mormon's (awe the perils of beliefs!).  My actual believes are much more on an atheistic to pantheistic side.  So I disbelieve the root metaphysics or mysticism of the faith tradition I was born into, but I am still OK with the morals and day-to-day culture.  In many respects, I have to be involved in my culture, it is really not a choice (anyone in a similar situation will get that).  My wife and all my family on both sides have lives which centered in this belief system, I can not ever fully escape it, nor do I want to fully escape it.  But the hard part is the entire society and family requires the proper Mormon Avatar, a shell or persona, which was forged in me as a 19 year old missionary.  A central story to me, which I will not take time on, at 19 years old I had the choice of unconnected death, or Mormon Avatar life.  My need for connection to the group out weight the cost of being authentic at that time, and I choose a Mormon Avatar life.  I could not do authentic then, I did not have the tools.  My imitate family culture made sure I didn't have such 'shameful' tools for self actualization; its a family control thing that I am sure that I am not alone in.         

Well it is damn hard work breaking out of such things and maintaining connections. Fighting both deeply held family shame and cultural shame (Mormon for me) is very hard shadow work.  I could run off and start over, but that price is way too high.  I still love my wife, I still want to be married.  Mormons still do have a excellent support structure, they are a great group to hang with when times get tough.  Didn't Buddha say something about the middle path?  Its a tough one.   

All this said, I have been breaking out of the Mormon Avatar required by my culture and being authentic.  I can do things now that where impossible for me as a 19 year old. As Ken's message listed, I have been de-programing for quite a while, but it has been in a high gear for several months.  At the same time I am trying to be careful to not drive my wonderful wife crazy with insecurities based in the Mormon belief system; as I said in the beginning I have my own believe system and I speak for me and I need to allow my wife space to speak for herself.  I cant let the sins which were perpetrated on me when I did not have power, be perpetrated by me when I have power.  Shadow work is tough stuff!  

All I will end with is there is defiantly a price for authenticity, as well as emotional and spiritual reliance.  But I also agree with Jung and Nietzsche, not doing this work has a price which is much higher in the long run.

I wish you all well on each of your journeys.

 

Sterling           

46

I went through my own spiritual questing stage quite a while ago, wow, scary to thing about it, how time flies,  started some thirty years ago.  Read everything I could get my hands on and did fairly intense practice, enough to know if I went any further, I would be in trouble. I had too many personal defects to make the endeavor sensible. 
As in all things balance is required. A spiritual practice can be a quest for power, just as any other endeavor in life can be.  Some "guru's" do take that approach to the matter, as well as those the more accepted western scientific fields. Human beings can develop skills that seem mind boggling, if not impossible altogether.  Look at  any great musical virtuoso, composer, mathematician, physicist,etc…  Here in the west, what is taken for granted in many other cultures, raises the immediate BS meter alert.  I did experience enough to see the limitation in the Western materialistic world view.  There was a time I would relish debates with died in the wool materialist in their own terms, to prove that materialism is a religion, a self generated mental construct like the religions they loved to denigrate and attack.  Such arguments would usually end in a respectful agree to disagree.  To me that was victory, there was a bit more tolerance in the world.

But that endeavor required training, same effort staying shape for a marathon, endless reading and debate. Much of it was, I discovered was my own desire to convince myself of the things that I had discovered but had not yet fully integrated. When awareness expanded the desire to convince the other ended.  Now there was only individual development and the focus on a concrete outward manifestation that would lead to a better world.  Fast forward twenty years, now the mental gymnastics required to continue to believe that consciousness is a byproduct of chemical reactions in brain is so hard maintain on a scientific basis, that to me the religiosity of such mental constructs are obvious.  But what is the point, even here if we again agree to disagree, there is much common ground to be had that is more useful.

The world is about relationships.  The problem with a financialised world view is that it is a step removed from direct relationship.  Financial analysis is fine as far as it goes, it is a useful tool of sorts, but transformation can only occur from direct relationships.  Take for example, Polyface farms.  The productivity there, by the owners claim, is five times his neighbors.  Such a transformation would not have been possible through economic analysis, it required a direct and intense relationship between the farmer and the detailed ecological fabric in which the farm exists.  There is where the transformation occurred. If you want to quantify the results after the fact, fine, do your financial analysis.  All of us, what ever we are doing, be fully in relationship with it, transform it, be authentic and transparent, do the financial analysis afterwards. To me this is where all the useful work is.

And if you want to call BS on someone, read 100 pages a night for a year, both pro and con.  Meditate, not for the purpose of spiritual enlightenment, but to gain metal control and acuity, and be ready to clearly articulate where the feelings of BS are coming from.  I have smelled a lot more BS on some of the financial guests, but did not hear the same kind of reaction.  I might want to dig back into Goethe, Heidegger, Kant, Steiner, some of the American transcendentalists, some of the better books on the new physics, Bruce Lipton, EO Wilson, etc to name a very few of a very long list, go back into training and have at it again.

47

Magnificent post, dude.  

Viva – Sager

48

that is all i can say.

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I second that (e)motion!

Very bold and I heartily endorse your courage in finding your own authenticity from inside.

One of my 'tests' for a guru, or teacher, is that they know that all the answers come from inside of each of us.  They do not come from the outside.  A teacher, or guide or guru, then, is a catalyst for my own inner discovery.

Everything form the outside is highly suspect to me as it may or may not be laced with someone else's shadows and unworked traumas and it for sure had to suffer through two translation filters - one coming out of their mouth and one passing into my ears.

I truly believe that our bodies are exceptional healing devices…what they accomplish on a second  by second basis, every single day, in discriminating between 'self' and 'other' is beyond my comprehension.  I've learned by personal experience and by careful observation that each person has within themselves everything they need to both heal and transform.

A good guide helps us discover that.

Which is why I keep pushing the discernment angle.  You already know, each of you, inside what your next steps are and how to heal and grow.  Nobody knows as well as you.

Right now I am reading (on the recommendation of Kim Kiyosaki…again, life is always surprising and interesting) a book called Untethered Soul.  So far I am enjoying it a lot as it is taking the Ekhart Tolle practice of divorcing one's sense of self fro the incessant chatter of one's mind to a deeper level.  

The whole process is really being fleshed out and expanded and that's helpful to me.  I think I'll see how much of today I can spend pretending that the chatter in my mind is a room mate (a practice in the book) and see if I would keep that person around if they were outside of me saying the things they say.

If not, then what?  :)

50

Chris,
You stated…

...all the answers come from inside of each of us.  They do not come from the outside..
I would respectfully disagree and contend that the answers to life's most important questions come from the Designer, not the design; from the Creator, not the created.

From what I've gathered, it would seem that the root of where we disagree is that I hold a theistic worldview, where you (seemingly) take more of a pantheistic view.  

This is perhaps a little off-track, but below is an excerpt of a white-paper I wrote several yrs ago addressing the question of the origin of life: 

....For example, to embrace the Darwinian view and its underlying premises of naturalism and atheism, by necessity you must embrace the following:

·      Nothing produced everything

·      Non-Life produced life

·      Randomness produced fine-tuning

·      Chaos produced information (ie DNA)

·      Unconsciousness produced consciousness

·      Non-reason produced reason

 

From what I've observed, it seems that neither Swan, Tolle, or any of the other New Age types offer explanations or answers to any of these challenges/issues, let alone empirical evidence/data to support their claims.

Thx again for the willingness to even open this thread and publicly engage in these incredibly important (and emotionally charged :) issues that everyone must wrestle with.  IMO, there is nothing more important.

Respectfully,

Steve

 

 

 

 

51

Why isn't Jesus mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls?

52

Kugs,
While the Dead Sea Scrolls have tremendous implications for the validity of many Old Testament texts (before Christ), they do not contain any New Testament texts regarding the life of Christ.  There are however plenty of secular historical documents that validate the Biblical accounts of Jesus.

For example, the secular Roman historian Flavius Josephus writes in Antiquites:

“At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man [if indeed one ought to refer to him as a man]. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who received the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. [He was the Messiah-Christ.] And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. [For on the third day he appeared to them again alive, just as the divine prophets had spoken about these and countless other marvelous things about him.] And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out.”
Bear in mind that Josephus was not a Christian, but a government sponsored historian. Also noteworthy is the fact that all 12 of Jesus' disciples claimed to have seen him after his crucifixion (also documented by Josephus, Pliny and others). They had much more to lose than to gain by making such claims, and indeed 11/12 suffered death as a result of their loyalty to Christ.  It's been well said that many will live for a lie, but few are willing to die for one.

Also, if interested, give Isaiah chapter 53 a read, bearing in mind that it was dated approx 740B.C. (A nearly complete scroll of Isaiah was amongst the Dead Sea Scroll discoveries)

As Chris alluded to in the interview, the "Belief Challenging" game can be tough as strong emotions rise to the surface.  What I so appreciate about PP is the ability of most to look at data/evidence objectively w/ the goal being truth, not the validation of preconceived ideas (I certainly don't have a corner on the truth market).  Show me how Swan's (or any other guru's, for that matter) truth claims stand up under the pressure of honest scrutiny and I will be more than willing to consider what they have to say.  As a natural skeptic, that's what initially turned me on to Christianity.  All the major tenets hold up under the most careful examination.  Jesus lived, died, rose again and the evidence is such that it would take a great degree of cognitive dissonance and rejection of basic logic to deny that Jesus lived and claimed to be God.  That leaves 1 / 3 possibilites; he was either 1) a Liar  2) a Lunatic  or … 3) Lord.  Use discernment, chose wisely :)  

Personally, chosing  #3 is far and away the best decision I've ever made.

Respectfully,

Steve

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So Steve, I've found many of the techniques from the "new age crowd" to be directly applicable to my daily life.  I like techniques more than I like theory.  Theory is nice but its applied technique that helps me get through the day.
One example: I find meditation to be a very useful tool; mind quieting, emotional releases, and so on.  This is not something taught by mainstream religion, at least not in my experience.  Am I to ignore and/or discard this very useful tool just because my teacher doesn't happen to subscribe to a particular creation theory, and/or doesn't have the answers to every question I might have?

Clearly my answer is no.  I don't demand complete knowledge or perfection from anyone.  I try to be open to fragments of truth appearing from anywhere; if it resonates with me, I try and apply it.  If it doesn't, I just say "that's not for me."  I trust my own moral compass to keep me from the rocks and shoals.  Mostly, it seems to work.  For me anyways.

54

From Wikipedia: 
The consensus is that the Qumran Caves Scrolls date from the last three centuries BCE and the first century CE.[2] Bronze coins found at the same sites form a series beginning with John Hyrcanus (135–104 BCE) and continuing until the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE), supporting the radiocarbon and paleographic dating of the scrolls.[4]

55

Kugs,
Regarding Wikipedia, I'll quote the great thinker and theologian Michael Scott: 

"Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know you are getting the best possible information."
Just kidding, I use Wikipedia as a quick reference also, but couldn't pass up an opportunity to throw in an Office quote :)

But, you made a good observation and that point usually causes confusion when the topic of Manuscript evidence comes up.  The point of clarification is that the Dead Sea Scrolls are not, and don't claim to be original manuscripts, but they are amazing nonetheless.  Take the scroll of Isaiah, for example.  Isaiah was originally penned ~740B.C., but prior to the Qumran discoveries in 1947, the oldest copy we had was dated around 800 A.D.  That makes for an approx. 1500yr difference b/t the original writing, and what we actually had.  Naturally, the skeptic would say that there's no way that the scroll we had (~800 AD) even remotely resembles the original written some ~1500yrs prior (~740AD).  Well, the scroll of Isaiah discovered in Qumran in 1947 was dated approx halfway b/t the original writing and what we had (dates check w/ Wikipedia).  When laid side-by-side, to the astonishment of most skeptics, they matched word for word, save a very small handful of minor word and grammatical differences, but nothing that changes the meaning of the text.

Also, it's worth pointing out that we don't have the original manuscripts of ANY literary works of antiquity, but the Biblical manuscripts that we do have (especially the Gospel accounts) FAR outnumber those of any other source.  You could easily make the case that if the manuscripts chronicling the life of Christ cannot be trusted, then no ancient documents can be trusted.

Sorry for the long-winded answer!

 

56

I guess I could make a list of all things you have to accept outside the remotest semblance of empiricism to believe there is a magic sky fairy up there somewhere, but that wouldn't be in the spirit of the thread or the site in general, for that matter.  If as it seems you want the fact of evolution explained to you in detail I recommend you read Coyne.
Chris if you want to delete this post that's fine, I'm not wedded to it.  Thanks for risking this subject matter.

57

Which has been repeated often shows that the Past is adjusted to support the Present observation. The assumption that the Past is immutable is incorrect. 

Stop telling God what to do with his dice.” 
― Niels Bohr
Persig supports this view. He says that only the Present exists as a thin holographic (my word) film at the confluence of the past, future and Quality. (The Holy Trinity. Subject, Object and Quality.)
 
You walk down the street and there you are, complete with all the money that you need in your pocket for that moments lesson. You don't have any money?  Obviously you don't need any money for that moments lesson, or the experience of hunger is what you are required to absorb. 
 
Will you die? You die at every moment, as one present is replaced with another, assuming your memories are not created to support the Present Observation, which the Quantum Erasure Experiment assures us is what is really happening.
 
So does Cold Fusion exist?  Reality says that we need energy and therefore the rules of the past will adjusted to support the Observation.
 
You don't like it? Please put your complaints in writing and address them to God, suggesting improvements in how to create Reality.
But perhaps you are not at that level of training yet. (And that statement is loaded with the assumption of past and future).
58

From Sosan, Zen patriarch
The great way is not difficult

 for those who have no preferences.

When love and hate are both absent

 everything becomes clear and undisguised

Make even the smallest distinction; however,

 and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.

If you wish to see the truth

 then hold no opinion for or against.

The struggle of what one likes

  and what one dislikes

 is the disease of the mind.

 

59

Chris, thank you for having the interview with Teal Swan.  Spirituality is so important for a balanced life and I find it a necessity in my life, especially now.  Our 14-year business has taken a financial nosedive in the past two years and now we are trying to launch a new service that we are passionate about and hopeful it will succeed.
Hearing other people’s perspectives and your openness in sharing your journey is inspiring.  Transparent and genuine is a great way to be and I like your comment to receive this material with an open mind, taking what works for you in the here and now while leaving the rest.  Trust yourself to know what works for you. 

I never heard of Teal, but after your interview and listening to her on YouTube, she has some ideas that can work for me and help me through financial challenges.  I also find that meditation, EFT (tapping) and HeartMath inner balance wonderful tools to use daily.

If you like the Untethered Soul, I recommend the audio version of The Surrender Experiment,  “My Journey into Life’s Perfection” spoken by the author, Michael Singer, which made it a powerful story.

I hope you continue to interview spiritual teachers on PP.

 

 

60

I enjoyed the Untethered Soul and would recommend it.  There are some useful tools at managing thoughts and putting them into place. Removing yourself from yourself in a sense and looking at your mind as the subject and another party if you will. A clear mind is truly the definition of peace…no wonder we don't have it in the world.  Our minds need training and it's this type of work I wish were integrated into the school systems at early ages. I think that could have a profound impact. A quick trick that works for me in times of heightened emotions of any kind is looking at a picture of the universe.  It sure has its way of putting things in perspective and then when I'm more balanced I can problem solve.