We’re Not Going To Make It…

Climber99, #28:  "Even if "renewables" were to go through 4 doubling from 4.5 to 9 to 18 to 36 to 72 kWh/day per person (which is highly unlikely in my view), it would still mean the average American would have to reduce their energy consumption by 71% (from 250 to 72 kWh/day). Forget running an electric car!  However it gets worse than this because not all the 72 kWh/day would be available to people. A proportion (perhaps all) of this 72kWh/day will have to be reserved to "renew" the "renewables" as they come to the end of their life spans."
Each doubling of wind and solar should take at most 4 years at current rates of growth (see below): I am figuring an average of 20% per year, which is a conservative medium between the 17% per year and 37% per year mentioned below for wind and solar, respectively. At 20% per year, doubling takes about 3.5 years. Four years, then, is a conservative estimate. Hence, four doublings should take ~15 years, from now to about 2030. Of course, there will still be room for more doublings, and by then the momentum is likely to be even greater since there are feed-forward effects of high volume, at least to a point (i.e. to a point somewhere shy of complete saturation). Remember the exponential function, a la Al Bartlett.  Solar PV growth has proven to be explosive, exceeding everyone's expectations. Solar is kicking nuclear's ass since it is so cheap and easy to install, and getting cheaper all the time.

Quite possible that we could be at 100% renewables by mid-century or before, based on conservative current growth rate extrapolation. Also, that assumes the existing subsidy structure, which heavily favors non-renewables, and it also assumes that the fossil fuel industry will continue to put up stiff resistance. Renewables are winning, even though they are charging into that headwind. If the subsidy structure were changed to even things out, or to favor renewables, and if the FF industry could be shut up, then it could happen a lot quicker.

It is amazing that this growth is happening, and will happen, just on economics alone – i.e. the economic advantages of renewables even in the face of the subsidy headwind. In other words, it is happening mostly because it is a sensible business/financial decision, rather than because of climate concerns or whatnot. Political efforts to speed things up would be nice, but may not be necessary. Saying this goes against my grain: I have a latent dislike for the idea of the world being saved as a business decision – as a side-effect of an ROI calculation. And yet, there it is. That's how things are unfolding, whether I like it or not. And at the end of the day – ideology be damned – I'll take it. And maybe I can learn to LIKE it. wink

Mark Jacobson seems to think that lack political will is an important impediment, but I am not so sure. It seems that it is happening just on economics alone; the statistics on explosive renewables growth don't lie, even if politicians do. 

For background see here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100%25_renewable_energy

Dramatically reduced pollution and CO2 release (with all that those imply for health, cost savings and planetary sustainability) will be "side effects" of the conversion.

As for "renewing the renewables" (i.e. replacement at end of life-cycle): no problem. Life cycles now appear to be at least 30 years and in most situations a half-century. The problem by then will be OVERcapacity, since vast new production structure will have been built up during the rapid-doubling years; this is happening right now, in fact.  The big renewables build-out will be a one-off thing, with only a trickle thereafter required for maintenance/replacement. We will have cheap energy from super high-EROI renewables requiring little maintenance and only multi-generational replacement (i.e. your grandkids will likely still be getting plenty of cheap energy – minus a half-percent or so attritional annual loss – from the PV panels you installed 40 years earlier).

The world is a strange darn place.

http://www.afp.com/en/news/renewables-posted-record-growth-rate-2015-irena … Renewables posted record growth rate in 2015: IRENA … 07 Apr 2016  … snip …  "Wind power capacity grew by 17 percent, or 63 GW, "driven by declines in onshore turbine prices of up to 45 percent since 2010," said the report. Solar power capacity rose by 37 percent, or 47 GW, after prices of solar modules fell. However, hydropower capacity increased only by three percent, while bioenergy and geothermal energy capacity increased by five percent each."

 

Also, China's global UHV grid – an "energy internet" – will be an important part of the global renewables picture mid-term, toward 2050. See below.

You might object that this is just a PROPOSAL, and that the reality of doing it is a different matter. Well, yes, the reality of doing it IS a different matter. But don't put it past them. To take just one example: China's 13,000km of high-speed rail – rapidly heading for 25,000km by 2020 – was "just a proposal" in the year 2000. Now it is reality.  More generally, consider their long series of largely-successful 5-year plans. They are big-time long-term planners, with a grand vision of global development, and they historically DO what they say they are going to do.

This particular project is enormous, I grant, but I would not bet against them.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/03/china-proposes-50-trillion-global-uhv.html
March 31, 2016
China proposes $50+ trillion Global UHV grid connecting all power generation including massive wind farm at the North Pole by 2050
China is proposing a $50+ trillion global energy grid. Global Energy Interconnection (GEI), a vision of a world power grid, was outlined by the State Grid Corporation of China ("State Grid")
It would be based upon a global network of Ultra High Voltage power lines connecting global power generation including massive wind farm at the North Pole and solar power from equatorial areas to energy users around the world.
If renewable generation grows at an annual growth rate of 12.4 percent over the world, then by 2050 renewable energy shall increase to 80 percent of total consumption, realizing clean energy supplement forever and completely solving the dilemmas caused by fossil fuels.
By 2050, the total CO2 emission will be controlled at about 11.5 billion tons, half of emissions in 1990, holding the temperature rise to within 2 degrees.
The accumulated investment on the global grid will exceed $50 trillion, tremendously boosting the development of new-emerging strategic industries, renewable energy, new materials and electric vehicle.
end quote

more background:

http://www.powermag.com/china-rolls-out-proposal-for-worldwide-grid/?pagenum=1
China Rolls Out Proposal for Worldwide Grid
02/25/2016

http://www.zyelec.com/en/Show_news.asp?id=641
China is building 7 ultra high voltage (UHV) projects
2015-12-3

http://grenatec.com/a-100-trillion-global-energy-internet-by-2050/
A $100 Trillion Global Energy Internet by 2050?
January 18, 2016

http://store.elsevier.com/Global-Energy-Interconnection/Zhenya-Liu/isbn-9780128044063/
Global Energy Interconnection, 1st Edition,
Author: Zhenya Liu
Imprint: Academic Press
eBook ISBN : 9780128044063
Print Book ISBN : 9780128044056
Pages: 396
Proposes a broad concept: global energy interconnection, filling the gap between, discrete technology development and global interconnection, proposing the interdependency of energy systems

 

 

ckessel #59: "An interesting question posed to me was why the solar PV manufacturing companies don't run their plants on PV generated electricity?"
They will, soon. Conversion of industrial civilization – which had depended mostly on FFs/nuclear for a century previous – does not happen overnight. It takes a few decades. In the same way that the Three Gorges dam was not built in a month, industrial civilization will not convert to renewables in a year.

We're basically just starting right now, or say 10 years ago. Up until the year 2000, renewables were at a pilot level. Serious renewables production is beginning right now, or as of 2005-2010. Prices are crashing, reflecting the economies of scale.

Industrial operations are already getting some of their electricity from PV, as part of the generation mix. As the PV fraction grows, then they will get more and more from PV, as well as other renewables (all parts of the mix).

We will probably never get to 100% renewable – just close. And that is good enough.

 

[duplicate post, sorry; thought it had not gone thru]

I would love an introduction to your neck of the woods.  Part of our plan for this trip is to connect with as many people and communities as possible.  If someone offers a place to stay or an introduction to their community, we are going to do our damnedest to take them up on it.  I'd love to come away from the trip with many new friends, connections, and appreciation for beautiful places and communities around the country.
I wish we had the VW camper but we thought we'd keep the capital investments low at least to start, so we are rolling in the Ford Focus hatchback with bike rack and trailer hitch storage rack.  The Focus only has 27k miles on it so we should be in good shape.

I'm going to make a standalone post about our trip - I'd love to connect with as many like-minded individuals as possible. 

If I am understanding this all correctly, our complex modern economy, which is based on a huge influx of resources (energy), cannot sustain itself indefinitely. It seems that even to keep our current society running utilizing the electrical grid and accompanying technologies (computers/cell phones,etc), a huge amount of energy is needed. So, significantly slimming down energy use just won't do since there won't be the critical mass energy production to sustain the infrastructure. Sure, we can charge our cell phone with a modest photovoltaic cell, but the infrastructure to keep the cellular system afloat requires enormous energy. Electrical systems including generation with PV may provide an interim measure while we settle into a post electrical system lifestyle. Yes, relying on natural heating systems (the sun), living in/below the ground, utilizing mechanical power through humans / animals and wind / water. Over time, as entropy sets in with the degradation of bicycles and other technologies reused for mechanical power, life will begin to look like it did pre-industrial revolution. The curve looks a lot like the settling back of the economy after a bubble burst. But now, it is a larger energy-industrial era "regression". Can it be any other way?

There's always…

Facts never get in the way of any mish-mash of back of the envelope calculations and hand waving by people who think that because they just thought of something that it is a 'new' idea no one ever considered
Mark Cochrane, I take my hat off to you for your tireless battle against the misinformation posted here. Please also consider that many people are employed by the big polluters and Big Coal, Big Oil to infest sites like this with astroturfing comments. It's been proved, so I am not making a far-fetched claim here.

What No One Tells You About Shopping For Your Wedding Dress
Armed with lookbooks, magazine tear-outs, my Pinterest app, and the image of my dream dress playing on repeat in my mind, I was ready for my very first wedding dress appointment. I had done the research for weeks, zeroing in on the single Amsale bridal gown I was sure I'd wear down the aisle. Only, after chatting with the bridal salon, I learned it was no longer available, a relic from the Fall '13 collection that had been circulating all over Pinterest. The designer had crafted new renditions in her subsequent collections, but they were all missing the details I'd regrettably fallen in love with. How did I get it so wrong? Well, it's nearly two years later, and I've come out the other side, happily married in a dress I still love. It wasn't a perfect process — I don't know if it ever is — but to help with your own search, I'm sharing what I've learned, namely how to stay emotionally sane and in control of what you want.
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  1. Do Your Research, but Come Open-Minded
    Being prepared is one thing, but (pardon the pun) being married to a dress you haven't met — or tried on — yet is another. When you call ahead or book online with a bridal boutique, they'll often ask you for a list or links of the dresses you're interested in, and this will help guide the appointment and help your sales associate be most helpful, especially since you'll likely have a limited time frame. On that note, be prepared with designers and silhouettes you like that also fit within your budget. Still, don't rule out a wild card once you're there. Especially early on in your search for the dress, be willing to experiment with an unexpected style. It might not be what you thought it would look like, but you might just fall in love all the same — just make sure it's in your budget before you do.
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  2. Don't Fight Your Body Type
    Like so many women, I've pored over the wedding pictures of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, her lithe frame carrying off her slip of a wedding dress flawlessly, wishing I might have the same bridal grace, the same elegant silhouette. The truth is, I'm just built differently. I pulled on a slinky satin gown at my second bridal appointment to channel her iconic look. I loved the way it hung on display, a minimalist cut with a sexy draped back, but on me, it looked entirely different. It clung to the wrong places, exposing parts of my body I didn't even know existed but I knew instantly I didn't like — at least not in this dress. No pep talk from Mom (who sat patiently with me in the dressing room) or wedding diet was going to change that. Knowing that was another step toward finding the right dress.
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  3. Stay True to Your Style
    No one else is wearing this dress — not your maid of honor, not your mom, your mother-in-law, your dad, or your grandma. So when you seek out the dress, make sure it's one you love. Likewise, don't let the location or the event dictate what you'll wear too much. For instance, just because it's a New Year's wedding doesn't mean the dress should come with tulle and a feathered skirt, unless you want it to. Clear your mind of what you "should" wear, and fill it with images of what makes you happy. And more importantly, be honest with your loved ones — and with the sales associate — about what that is, so you're all on the same page right up front.
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  4. Crying Is Allowed, but Not Required
    When I finally thought I'd found the dress, my dad joined my mom and my sister and came to see me in it. There I was, standing in front of my family having that bridal moment in a white ballgown; my dad smiled and I remember him saying, "I could dance with you in that dress." I'd seen Say Yes to the Dress so many times, I knew it was my cue to cry, but I didn't. I didn't get emotional at all, in fact. I threw up my hands and said, "This is it then. Let's do it!" Days later I would replay that in my head as a sign that I'd picked the wrong dress. I'd call my mom with doubt; "I didn't even cry," I'd reminded her. To her credit, she put it all in perspective: "It's a dress, Hannah. I think that's OK." And it is — it's OK if you cry, if you lose your sh*t, or if you don't. It's all OK. As long as you're comfortable and happy and you feel like yourself, who really cares if you shed a tear just because TV or movies made you feel like you should? Remember, there are no "shoulds" here.
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  5. You Could Search Forever, but Don't
    There are countless dresses, new trends every season, new designers, and a million options out there. You could actually search forever and still not be satisfied, afraid you've missed the next great style or overlooked a dress that might be the one. I was admittedly caught up second-guessing myself long after I'd found my dress that I forgot to enjoy just being done with it. Every time I stopped to remind myself that the search was over, that I didn't have to scour the Internet or call every boutique in NYC for appointments, I could breathe easy again. It doesn't matter what every dress on the market looks like, just the one you're calling your own.

under the frying pan…from what I know of methane hydrates, we're probably going to "go there" as an energy-hungry civilization, I'm fully cognizant that while CO2 may or may not be a "big deal" in terms of an anthropomorphic component to what I think is reasonable evidence of a global warming cycle underway, methane certainly and without question is a Big Deal.
 

I'd rather see an addressing of the core issue in my opinion, which is population management (ideally through enlightened self-awareness of everyone, but it won't happen).  Also, Thorium PBRs.  No brainer. Get going, PRC, because the West ain't going to do it. I've got some standing to think that, been in the nuclear industry ten years, am interested in the subject, went to the trouble of getting a degree in it.

 

Interesting thread, thanks everybody for the read.  I posted this comment when I read Mark C's remarks about the hydrates.  Again, my opinion, it would be a big deal.  There's a considerable downside.

Mike

 

If you have followed any of the information about LFTR (Lithium Fluoride Thorium Reactor) you would realize that this technology holds the key to the next 1000 years of abundant energy for the world.
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK367T7h6ZY

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIDytUCRtTA

Perhaps it is time to revisit the model of a society sustainable for over 200 years- Japan in the Edo period
> Note the remarkable feature of a stable population-.roughly 30 million over 2 centuries

In recent years, an increasing number of Japanese have begun to realize that during the Edo Period their country had what we now recognize in today's terms as a sustainable society. The population was stable and the society did not rely on material inputs from the outside. Many are now trying to learn more about the social system of that time and apply the "wisdom of the Edo Period" in contemporary society and living.

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2005-04-05/japans-sustainable-society-edo-period-1603-1867

 

Tall, so glad you mentioned Edo Japan. I've just started reading a book called Just Enough by Azby Brown which discusses lifestyle, farming and construction practices of that period - I'm only a quarter of the way through and already I consider it a 'must read'. Everything from irrigation techniques, to fertiliser, to forest management and home/farm construction. One of the strict rules enforced to preserve forests was that you could only burn branches that fell onto the ground in order to allow forests to recover - the timber was used almost exclusively for construction. Imagine what the GDP of country would look like fueled only by fallen branches! :slight_smile:

A theme throughout the book is the ethic of conservation - you only take what is needed as it is a taboo to be seen as greedy given the resource scarcity.

Luke thank you very much for pointing this out.  I agree completely.
In large part because of this topic, just recently I have walked away from my own successful law firm on K street to start/renew life in a rural Japanese village.  The values you mention from the Edo period can still be found to some extent and, in my opinion, are good building blocks to a great future.  The  people in rural Japan seem to understand the  significance of what they have and are delightful to work with.  

We are community building here and welcome queries from others who might consider joining a community that lacks guns and drugs and who are willing to work hard  and humbly respect the old values/customs  that you refer to.  We are "Renaissance" at www.yugeshima.com

 

Tall, so glad you mentioned Edo Japan. I've just started reading a book called Just Enough by Azby Brown which discusses lifestyle, farming and construction practices of that period - I'm only a quarter of the way through and already I consider it a 'must read'. Everything from irrigation techniques, to fertiliser, to forest management and home/farm construction. One of the strict rules enforced to preserve forests was that you could only burn branches that fell onto the ground in order to allow forests to recover - the timber was used almost exclusively for construction. Imagine what the GDP of country would look like fueled only by fallen branches! :slight_smile:

A theme throughout the book is the ethic of conservation - you only take what is needed as it is a taboo to be seen as greedy given the resource scarcity.

[/quote]

(Duplicate post)

With coppicing and pollarding, one collects the wood produced from the previous year's growth, sustaining a living 'firewood tree'.
http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/coppicing-firewood

 

http://www.fragmentsfromfloyd.com/artsandscience/photoimage/coppice-and-pollard/

 

 

 I just happened to click back on this thread and was amazed to see how many comments it has attracted since I read it when it first came out. Chris I think you might have hit a nerve with this topic as I don't remember any topic attracting this many comments.  Thanks to all the posters for providing so much information… it will take me a while to get through all of this. 

The discussion of global warming (or whatever the PC newspeak for that term is) and interruption of the carbon cycle is an interesting one, but I'm more interested in the effects of these two on the carbon/oxygen cycle. What happens to oxygen generation when phytoplankton start dying off in really large numbers?

I credit Chris's Crash Course with opening my eyes to the impending collapse of our global economy and many other aspects of how things must change, especially the notion that natural resources are available in limited supply and are heavily dependent on low cost energy for their extraction.  For the past 6 years, I've been a follower of posts and comments on this site, and have found many posts helpful in directing my own personal efforts towards reducing our family's footprint and becoming less of the problem and more of the solution.  I've installed low flush toilets, more energy efficient windows, increased home insulation, planted fruit trees, grape vines, and berry bushes, and have been growing a portion of our vegetables in 3 raised garden beds.  I'm in the process of building a chicken coop and continuing various other initiatives to become more self sufficient and less dependent.  I've shared my insights with those I care about and a few others have taken it to heart along the way.   
Along the way however, I have become skeptical of the notion that Anthropogenic CO2 is causing global warming and/or climate change.  This week, I was made aware that the Portland (OR) Public School Board has banned text books that may question the absolute legitimacy of Anthropogenic Global Warming and will promotes "Climate Justice" whatever that means.  Here's where I became aware of this development:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs90lqBCHpE

In this post, the author makes his case for the School Board's reconsidering this position with references to a range of sources who have posited arguments against the impact of Anthropogenic CO2.  I noted a number of names I hadn't been aware of and decided to look into Murry Salby's work on CO2 specifically.  A quick search on Youtube surfaced this presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCya4LilBZ8

Murry's research is quite comprehensive, concluding that anthropogenic CO2's impact on global temperature cannot contribute anything close to a 2oC increase in global temperature, but we are more likely to run out of resources before such an event will ever occur.  Murry doesn't claim that CO2 isn't rising, but rather that the primary cause for CO2 rising is the earth's warming and not anthropogenic CO2 production.  Incidentally, Murry moved to Australia where his research was funded, but subsequently lost his job when his conclusion didn't uphold the collective thinking and his presentation reflects a certain bitterness over this issue, but nonetheless, he makes a strong case for his findings with extensive analysis and mathematical formulas showing that the IPCC's models are grossly exaggerating the impact of CO2 on climate change (global warming) and that we will have little impact on the outcome, regardless of the degree of success or failure of our attempts to reduce Anthropogenic CO2. 

Michael Crichton, author of States of Fear, was an articulate intellect, medical professional, author, producer, and critic of global warming/climate change before passing away some years ago.  Here's a presentation he gave on the topic which I believe is worth watching in full.  However, the presentation is 1:34 in length.  If you choose to take a shortcut, I'd encourage you to pick up at the 1:07 mark where, following his speech, the post incorporates a reading of the author's comments on the politicization of the Global Warming issue incorporated into States of Fear, comparing it to Eugenics and other examples of politicized pseudo-science that were subsequently shown to be false with significant negative outcomes.  If anything, we may be over investing in reducing anthropogenic CO2 at the expense of more important ailments of society and global humanity.  Check out Michael's views here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HOP6JnaZgw

I'm not trying to persuade anyone from personal preparations or reducing their energy footprint, as I myself am fully committed to doing.  We depend on oil for plastics and other chemical compounds that will be missed as much as energy and I believe someday we will come to lament having used Oil for fuel when it's no longer available for its other uses.  I also believe we will need alternatives in addition to all current forms of fossil fuel to recover form the pending economic collapse.  However, as we approach a global economic collapse, you may find some solace in the perspective that we may not have already tipped over the edge on global warming and in fact, we may never tip over that edge.  Good thing, because as Chris so eloquently points out, if they are right, we probably aren't going to make it anyway.