Audio Analysis Is Most Consistent Two Shooters At Trump Rally

[bigtim]

I agree to a 2nd shooter theory because:

1. An inside job it obvious and the powers that be would not take this opportunity to rely on Crooks alone. Too much planning and risk invested, too much at stake (trillions of dollars, power, etc.).
2. Audio different gun shot sounds cannot be explained by 1 gun, but clearly 2 guns, two locations, and two shooters.
   I have theories on 3 possible locations:

Arguments for the Vent location, with a concealed false ceiling.
• Excellent hiding spot to remain undetected.
• From many peoples calculations of around 425 feet based on sound, if that is accurate, the distance is perfect.
• Police were weirdly concerned with people standing at the fence on the grounds between the AGR #6 and the rally, telling people to clear away. Was this to get rid of witnesses to the forthcoming shooting? These people could presumably see or record gunshots coming from a vent.
• We have a suppressed and metallic sound/echo, consistent with firing a gun near metal, thru a tube, etc.
• Nearly identical trajectory as Crooks.
Arguments against the Vent location, or unknowns:
• This could be ruled in or ruled out depending on an interior building inspection of whether that is plausible.
• He would have to have some signal, perhaps a radio signal in an earpiece or a vibrating object on his person, or some other signal to when Crooks is in position so he can fire.
• We see no gunshots or evidence of gunshots thru those vents; no flashes of light, no obvious holes or signs of same.
• Literally no escape route. This assassin would have to be entirely confident that he would not be found and he’d have to wait there for some time and get the “all clear.”
• There were a lot of witnesses and several recordings and we do not see any evidence one might expect, no flashes from those vents, no damage to the vents which do not appear large enough for a person to look thru a scope and fire a rifle. One would need about a dinner plate sized hole or at least a saucer sized hole to look thru a scope and fire the rifle. In other words, more than just a gun barrel. I guess you could possibly use 2 perfectly aligned holes 5 or so inches apart but that gets somewhat complicated to adjust your view and firing solution.
• Do we know if the 7’ chain link fence or the bleachers or any other barriers would obstruct this firing position? Keep in mind Crooks apparently struck the victim in the bleachers and he was several feet higher (although Trump ducked down by then).

Another possibility is the 2 story AGR roof 300 feet behind Crooks. This is the location I would chose for myself on such a mission, in theory.
Arguments for 2 story AGR roof:
• Excellent vantage point and hiding location. It has vertical roof facades on two sides and a man wearing a white Tyvex suit could hide up there unseen for a long time. A white rifle and white bag could remain well hidden too.
• From this location, a pro assassin could remain hidden and observe Crooks getting into position, the crowds, law enforcement, the rally, and Trump taking the stage.
• Same linear trajectory.
• Effectively invisible from the ground.
• Excellent escape route after the shooting. Fire 3 shots, slide down, let Crooks fire off his burst of fire. Hide white tyvex suit and gun and 3 shell casings on the roof for later retrieval or take it all with him, sneak away off the back side of the building and blend in with the crowd (which was weirdly told to disperse after this crime), sneak away, or “law enforcement.”

Arguments against the 2 story AGR roof:
• Vertical trajectory and distance/sound may not line up with this position.

A 3rd possibility is a tree top but this seems remote, no ability to escape, shell casings would fall to the ground, etc.

[offtheback]

Tim,

I like the position behind Crooks, but if Greg’s audio measurements are anywhere near accurate, it has to be ruled out.

So we are left with Crooks acting alone, which just doesn’t vibe with how almost every LEO failed to stop it or the sound differences, or

The vent theory. By my analysis of Greg’s data, the shooter would be well back from the vent, which could explain no one noting a flash? For this to be the answer, I think we also have to assume it was a couple of LEOs, so no need to hide as long as no one else is in the building. You just clean up and waltz out.

[bigtim]

Just pulled this screen shot from a video.

Yes it’s terrible. And I’m not sure if that dark spot on the 1 story AGR #6 is Crooks but it’s awfully close. Notice the 2 story building behind him, see a white figure poking up over the roofline? If I were a pro, I’d be wearing a white Tyvex type suit, and positioned on that 2 story roof behind Crooks… Just saying. Perfect vantage, concealed from at least 3 counter sniper teams, excellent vantage of everything, Crooks getting into position, law enforcement, the rally, Trump on stage, with a excellent escape pathway.

It appears to line up with Crooks, over the window with the drainpipe, if you follow the roof ribs from the drainpipe to the dark shadow, and then follow that up higher behind Crooks there’s a unexplainable white pixelated figure - appears to be a silhouette the same size as Crooks…

It’s a wild theory, and does not line up with the audio, but perhaps the audio studies are playing tricks due to a silence rifle, different echo sources, snaps farther/closer to audio sources, etc.

Video source: https://youtu.be/UxoXzqg8aLwf

[intolerance]

Idk if there is a second shooter, but I cannot be convinced Crooks acted alone.

He’s a 20 year old guy with no training or experience in any of this (from what we can tell by looking at his physique, I’m going to stick to that being true). Even if he got lucky, it would have to be the best luck an assassin could have.

If he was alone, we have to somehow believe that this random dude got soooooooooooooooooo goddamn lucky that he not only somehow managed to carry all of his gear (rifle, extra mags, “explosives”??) and he never got caught (questioned or detained). He gets caught with that shit in a backpack at a political rally and he’s going to prison, so he has some supreme confidence just doing this.

Next, according to bodycamera officer #122125, he informed Secret Service of the AGR building security flaw on Tuesday, which would have been July 9th. Crooks was somehow able to figure out, with like the 2 hours he spent flying his drone, that this giant flaw in the Secret Service security detail was not fixed. He somehow got sooooooooooo lucky that he knew the entire time Trump was going to be on that stage, no sniper or officer was going to be patrolling or engaging that rooftop position.

Instead I think he had help. Realistically I think at least two local cops and at least one government agent, not specifically Secret Service, maybe FBI or CIA, but someone who had insight from Tuesday that the security flaw on the rooftop was going to be exposed and never addressed. I don’t think any local cop would have been able to get that kind of intel.

[edr77203]

For any bullet fired, you can determine where the shot was fired if you have the following information:
The x, y, z coordinates of the cell phones, xn, yn, zn
The time of the rifle’s initial crack arriving at the cell phones, tn. The sound waveform of each shot will be marked by a transient followed by a lower waveform caused by the echoes. The rifle transient occurs at the time needed for the analysis.
From this, you can determine the position of the rifle and the exact time it was fired. Here are four equations with the four unknowns, x0, y0, z0, t0:
((x_1-x_0 )^2+(y_1-y_0 )^2+(z_1-z_0 )^2 )^(1/2)=〖Vel〗_sound x (t_1-t_0 )
((x_2-x_0 )^2+(y_2-y_0 )^2+(z_2-z_0 )^2 )^(1/2)=〖Vel〗_sound x (t_2-t_0 )
((x_3-x_0 )^2+(y_3-y_0 )^2+(z_3-z_0 )^2 )^(1/2)=〖Vel〗_sound x (t_3-t_0 )
((x_4-x_0 )^2+(y_4-y_0 )^2+(z_4-z_0 )^2 )^(1/2)=〖Vel〗_sound x (t_4-t_0 )
The rest of the information is taken from the cell phone data with the speed of sound at the given altitude.
t1, t2, t3, t4
The position information can be obtained from the person’s position in the stands.
This would be compared to the shell casings, the shot count, the shot that ended the kid’s life, and the gunshot residue in the barrel of the rifle.

[brian60221]

@bigtim

Arguments against the 2 story AGR roof:

When “howdoiknowthisinfo” first started trolling the forum with this idea, I ended up testing it myself, since he wouldn’t do it.

So It's Back To First Principles

Here, I took a shot ( ) at the math that you seem too shy to do. You say the shot was about 237m, and that the round might have been traveling at about 869m/s. So the slug takes ~0.2727s to arrive. The speed of sound on that day was apparently ~351.18m/s, so the report would take ~0.6748s to arrive. So in the recording of Trump’s mic, we should hear the report 0.4021s after the crack. Did I do that right? If so, is that what we actually see in the audio data? I don’t remember, I’ll have t…

TLDR: if somebody shot from the far roof with normal ammo, the crack-thump difference would be about 0.4s, whereas we see 0.22s in the actual data.

[bigtim]

Thank you for the analysis. Is there something, another variable, that might account for the .18 seconds crack-thump? Perhaps faster 5.56mm ammo, or larger caliber traveling 30% faster, or position/type of recording equipment, gust of wind, or a combination of variables?

If we are assuming Crooks was firing a 5.56mm traveling at ~3000 fps, then a assassin would need to be firing approximately 1.5x faster ammo to make up for the difference, or 4500 fps. I acknowledge that is unlikely to nearly impossible. Looking at even hot fast 5.56 loads into the 3500 fps range seems too slow. And larger bullets like 6.5 creedmore and 7mm magnum those are still well under 3500 fps. So this might very well preclude that location.

But frankly I’m not smart enough on acoustics and analyzing sound waves and speeds so I must defer to those more knowledgeable on this topic.

BTW, I’m not trolling at all if you read all my posts I’m legitimately interested in this topic. I personally think it is the best TACTICAL location for a assassin providing excellent overwatch of Crooks, law enforcement, crowd reactions, the rally, Trump on stage. Relatively easy shot with a scoped rifle. Excellent areas to hide, and escape toward the rear whilst everyone is focused on Crooks. Same bullet trajectory. Concealment from all 4 counter sniper teams too… Nobody was watching that rooftop.

[daniloraf]

@brian60221

TLDR: if somebody shot from the far roof with normal ammo, the crack-thump difference would be about 0.4s, whereas we see 0.22s in the actual data.

Yep! I agree with Brian60221 on the math for 5.56.
And if it was 7.62x39mm or .308, the crack-thump would still be higher than 0.3s, considering the distance of howdoiknowthisinfo’s theory.

[brian60221]

I find it kind of confusing, but here’s how I think about it. If someone is shooting from 237m away like in howdoiknow’s scenario, the sound is going to take however long it takes to arrive at Trump’s mic, dependent on nothing but the speed of sound that day. The faster the ammo is, the greater the crack-thump difference will be. So maybe counterintuitively, if we want to have a crack-thump difference of 0.22 s from that far roof, the shooter would actually have to use very slow ammo. The intuition for this is that the sound would not be so far behind the round, because the round is very slow.

[hazard]

Well. I agree.

And NOT a wild theory at all because I saw your trajectory plot. AND not many folks know this fact but shots came IN to Trump on the Stage from 800 feet away. Approx.

[brian60221]

@hazard

shots came IN to Trump on the Stage from 800 feet away

Please explain how you think you know this. Thanks.

[ca11]

Has anyone digested audio to corroborate John Cullen’s assertion that there were subsonic shots?

I remember early-on seeing the north counter-sniper team seemingly flinch on video and thinking they must have had something come their way. In time I understood those reactions occurred before the 3+5 rounds. So it was puzzling until hearing Cullen’s suggestion.

[hazard]

Well - back to basics - the CBS Stage Mic picked up the shots from approx 800 feet away coming IN to Trump on the Stage. I mentioned this to the Team some days ago (as had been trying to get someone to plot that curve on the Site Plan.)

And subsequently have been waiting for a few days for a sensible 2nd/3rd Shooter location to reveal itself. So well done EVERYONE. I think where Big Tim drew that in and the clothing suggestions were very reasonable and accurate.

This location for 2nd Shooter also covers the echo situation too at approx 195-200feet.

[brian60221]

@hazard

the CBS Stage Mic picked up the shots from approx 800 feet away

Did you do the math about what the muzzle velocity of the round would need to be for the crack-boom difference to be 0.22s over 800ft?

[daniloraf]

@brian60221

Please explain how you think you know this. Thanks.

I feel the pain…

[bingorev]

Have you been thinking about this: If it was two shooters, one firing the first three shots and one firing the next 5, then the time between shot 3 and 4 would be slightly different on different recordings with different angles to those two shooters. If we know the position of one shooter and the positions of many microphones, we can determine where the other shooter was. At least theoretically. I am not capable of doing this, but still I am launching this idea. Good luck!

[alvina16]

CLEAR PROOF ~ TWO (2) SHOOTERS. No gray area, no maybes, no question – TWO (2) SHOOTERS.

3 bodycam videos were released to Senator Chuck Grassley. On the 1st one [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzus2Ilw-mg&rco=1] where SS, FBI, & other law enforcement congregate atop the roof where the shooter’s dead body lay, 2 men in camouflage with bodycam tell colleagues, “Watch out for shell casings (meaning “look for”) . . . (then counting) 2, 3, 4, 5 right there.” In other words, there were only 5 shell casings found near Crook’s body. This is at the 7:54 mark. In conjunction with Dr. Martenson’s audio it’s undeniable proof that Crooks did not fire the initial 3 shots – which included the one that hit DjT. It’s also proof he fired the next 5 which were followed by Shot #6 (?) + 1 shot from the sniper that took him down.

More confusion . . . Crooks either knew, or did not know, that another Shooter was part of the Grand Scheme. In either case, once he heard the initial 3 shots & watched his “target” go down, what did he expect to shoot at??? Either way, he had to know he was the “decoy” – or, the “sitting duck”. . . or better yet, the “patsy”. Then again, maybe he knew it was a “suicide mission” from the very beginning.

I have a strong feeling the FBI’s final report of this attempted assassination is going to be as laughable as the “Warren Commission”. Keep up the good work – America & Patriots need your insights & vigilance . . . RnB

[brian60221]

@alvina16

2, 3, 4, 5 right there

Yeah, but then later in the video that same guy counts 8.

[vt1 (VT)]

As much as I think two shooters would be plausible I cannot back that up with the actual evidence.

My 3D model is very consistent with the first bullet coming from Crooks position. I used James Copenhaver camera footage to fine-tune the model, because Google Earth elevation is not accurate enough.

Here are the link’s to my model: 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6

We also have Greg TDOA model on Mathlab. And here is his video demonstrating the model, with old data. Here is his latest findings with more accurate position of each source.

If there was a second professional shooter he would not miss. The ballistic simulations resulted in 4 inches drift from wind, which is can be compensated.

[jmholford (J&L)]

@cmartenson

We’ll be working to resolve the audio data and echoes against this and one other possibility.

In Chris’s discussion with Peter Boghossian, The Whole System Needs To Be Burned Down (8/9/2024), it was apparent that a crucial detail has become lost.

Chris Martenson (17:08.854)

and I can show you this piece right here … This right here we have a video recording [labeled “Now For Audio From Video #2] and … you can hear two separate weapons clear as day. One is muffled and goes [took, took, took] and it has no audio echoes …

Chris’s original examination of the shots, Audio Analysis Is Most Consistent Two Shooters At Trump Rally (8/5/2024), did find, and measure, the audio echoes for the first three shots. They were earlier, but they did exist.

Chris Martenson (18:38.826)

[For three shots] … that shot sound also went somewhere else and bounced off the surface and then came to the camera. And here we can see it’s an average of about 0 .08 seconds when I measure them. It’s a little imprecise, but this one was 0 .083. This one was 0 .077…. That time gap right there, 0 .08 seconds, is consistent with a reflective surface that that sound from the gun blast had to travel another 90 feet.

[For five shots] … This is the echo at 0 .17 seconds away…. we can’t have the echoes come from such entirely different spots because this at 0 .17 seconds, this echo has to be coming off of a surface that is now closer to 195 feet further away.

The echoes in shots 1-3 have implications, but not the ones Chris originally thought. He took the large change in delay to mean a large change in shooter location. But it can also mean a change in reflective surface. This is counterintuitive, but the pathological geometry here supports it.

I would appreciate anyone checking what I consider these “green” facts:

• Shots 4-8 echoed off the peach surface.
• Shots 1-3 echoed off the red surface.
• There are no other plausible reflecting surfaces into location [4] other than these two
• Shots 1-3 came from an elevated position with line of sight to President Trump
• All shots 1-8 had at least some exposure to the NW to create the echoes
• Therefore shots 1-3 came from the region outlined in light red

If these facts are green, and greg_n’s TDOA analysis is green (all shots fired within a few meters), then One Shooter is green. Which is kind of important. So please help check this.