Well, they claim they’re privy to special information. I have no idea why anything associated with this case should still be a secret. To me, anything other than radical transparency is deeply suspect. Why are all these people who work for the government supposed to be like secret agents whose actions can’t be talked about?
2 Likes
Hi @greg_n ,
could you check 2 sounds on this video from your post? They happen between shots 9 and 10.
- 12s69 after peak of shot 1
- 13s27 after peak of shot 1.
I didn’t use exact markers, those are the aprox positions so you can find them. I’m sure you’ll hear it. They could be from the crane failing, we can see the hooks and steel cables being tensioned at that moment. However, I can’t hear those two sounds from the other camera that recorded the podium. Or any other shot sound from anything else…
@rough_country_gypsy could it be a shot from far away? Click the link below and listen with your eyes closed and you’ll say yes. With eyes open, it seems to be sounds coming from the hooks supporting the sound system. I don’t know… just something that I hadn’t heard anywhere else before.
yes, that would be required if the chain of custody was guaranteed with respect to the shell casings that were recovered “on the roof” and if proper analysis had been done of the bullets recovered from the victims and hardware that got impacted, but the first count of the “casings on the roof” resulted in 3 or 5 and only 20 minutes later the count ended in 8, and to my knowledge, no analysis of any of the bullets has happened, let alone been made available…
ok. fine with me.
exactly right!
a 400 yards circle around crooks on the roof crosses with the building/stands where “Washington Co. Sniper” was located according to the preliminary report issued by the Butler ESU.
in this video the man from Legally Armed America shows the location of that sniper:
the roof of that location is higher than the roof of AGR building 6, but as far as I know, no snipers have been reported on that roof.
there was, however, a reporting of a sniper rifle that looked out on the green in front of Trump:
in the above picture you see some mud like area around the muzzle. this is also encircled in the following picture:
so, if you label all the reference buildings seen in the muzzle photo and the layout, all the points of interest match:
a. AGR building 6
b. water tower
c. sniper team Hercules 2
d. building near the rally field
e. antenna
the reason why I do not believe that snipers 1/2/3/4 on the barns behind Trump shot crooks is because the relatively limited damage to crooks’ head/body, given that they use a MK13 mod 7 chambered with the very damaging .300 Winchester Magnum.
the muzzle of the rifle showed in the above pictures makes much more sense and is at 400 yards from crooks.
@daniloraf Yes, it’s apparent that NTD was using a wide-coverage microphone for this livestream. They either did it intentionally in order to pick up crowd reactions to Trump’s speech, or maybe since NTD is a low-tier media company they didn’t have the podium feed available to them. Either way, we get to hear sounds on this recording that we don’t get with the podium mic, and it’s better quality than smartphone audio.
The podium mic is designed to reject crowd noise and emphasize the orator. So that, coupled with all the screaming and yelling up front, made it so we don’t hear the sound of the speaker stack hitting the base of the boom lift. At least that’s what those two metallic clanks sound like to me.
2 Likes
Have you watched Ben Shaffer’s testimony? He’s the Washington County ESU counter-sniper in the large grandstands you included a photo of.
He states he did not take a shot and could not see Crooks.
I’m making an addendum to a response I made earlier to @howdoiknowthisinfo who had originally said:
A YouTube viewer made a similar comment on my last video, saying that he thought it was wrong for me to assume that Shot 10 came from the South Barn. He thought I should model it as though it came from the same position that shot 9 did. So, I pointed out the same things I mentioned in this forum earlier - that sounds on the Source 2 (“TMX”) video demonstrated that shot 9 had a crack-boom time of 49 ms and shot 10 was 133 ms. However, he correctly pointed out that 133 ms is problematic, so I spent some time looking into it and came up with a somewhat long-winded response that I posted for him and will share with you all as well:
You have raised some excellent technical points, so I will respond in depth. I now wish that I had spent more time looking at this audio data on TMX shots 9 & 10 before making my previous response to you. You are correct that the 133 ms crack-boom time seen in the TMX video for shot 10 does imply a bullet velocity that seems way too low. Taking into account the off-axis position of TMX compared to the trajectory of the bullet, I compute 2391 fps. However, I use 2895 fps in the model for shot 10, which results in a computed crack-boom of 164 ms.
Shot 9 makes a lot more sense. For that shot, the model uses a velocity of 2800 which results in a computed crack-boom time of 48 ms. That is very close to the 49 ms crack-boom time observed in the audio track of the TMX video.
But with the big discrepancy we see on shot 10, I’m no longer convinced that what I’m hearing there at 133 ms is really a boom. I’ll have to investigate that further. Perhaps it’s an echo and not a boom? If you haven’t looked at the TMX video for yourself, you probably should. It’s very interesting. I’ve found it best to listen to the audio at 1/10 speed. When you do this, you will hear just how different shots 9 & 10 sound, as well as hearing the booms/echos.
Okay, so what you are asking me to do is to treat shot 10 the same way that I treat shot 9, which means using the same bullet velocities: 2800 mps in both cases, and assume that that the shot is coming from the Butler ESU officer’s approximate location for computing the crack-boom times. That is a reasonable request.
… So, I just took the time to do that, and here is a summary of the result. The TDOA hyperbolas do converge to a reasonable location that is just west of the big barn door entrance to the North Barn. The location is 586765 m E; 4523410 m N. I believe this is very near where one of the huge flag cranes was parked. We have (silent) bodycam video from a Butler Police officer standing right next to this crane. I could be wrong, but I don’t think his camera showed another ESU officer in that same location, only the one that fired shot 9.
But here is an additional data point for you to consider. Listen to shots 9 & 10 on the podium video. They sound extremely different to me. Shot 9 sounds like a “boom” and shows an amplitude peak of -4.0 dB on the meter of my video editor. However, shot 10 sounds like a “crack” and has an amplitude of at least -1.4 dB. (I say “at least” because I can see that shot 10 engaged the AGC limiter on the podium audio track.) Again, if you can listen to these sounds at 1/10 speed it makes it much easier to hear the difference. These observations clearly lead me in the direction of the South Barn for shot 10.
So, with all this said and considered, I still believe that the South Barn is a much more logical place for the origin of shot 10. But I appreciate your question and the challenge it brought. It sounds like you have been delving fairly deeply into this analysis yourself. If you end up publishing something, please let us know by posting a comment here. [on the YouTube video]
3 Likes
We can use the operators from wave mechanics.
I will use X^, because there is no operator of time.
<ψ|x|ψ>
For the 8 shots:
ch3 has about 600 sample time delay to ch1.
ch2 has approx. 1000 sample time delay to ch1.
The 9th shot is an exception, ch3 registers first. Then ch1 and ch2 have the same delay about 500 sample time. (Remember, sample rate is 48000 sps.)
1 Like
what is your threshold to consider a bullet’s velocity to be “way too low”?
a general remark I have regarding sound analyses and the crack-boom and echo’s and alike: there are so many combinations I never see being considered…
the snipers behind Trump were using suppressed rifles, and it is highly likely they were using subsonic ammunition…
- when you look at the north snipers (Hercules 2, behind Trump’s right shoulder, direction of the water tower), you see the first sniper absorb the recoil of his rifle immediately after the first incoming shot was fired. he did not have a direct line of sight, so his shot must have pruned the trees blocking these snipers’ view, or that bullet must have ended up somewhere in one of the AGR buildings or the trees behind/around that site
- a second or two later, the second sniper absorbed the recoil of firing his gun. he had a slightly better view on AGR building 6, but the same remarks apply
- also one of the two snipers on the southern barn fired at least 1 shot. with the same type of suppressed rifle, likely with the same type of subsonic ammunition
so, at least 3 subsonic rounds coming from the rally site towards the AGR site dilute the sound recordings.
Gary Melton from Paramount Tactical mentioned some of these subsonic rounds in an early discussion, but nobody seems to have been paying attention to these shots…
so, a subsonic round fired by a suppressed rifle
- does not come with the explosion seen and heard at the muzzle
- does not break the sound barrier, which interferes with models using the crack-boom and echo registrations
1 Like
Absolutely. 
1 Like
I just watched that testimony.
there are reasons why I usually do not go into such hearings because I do not want to get exposed to lies…
near the end there was a direct question to find out how many rounds had been fired, and ben shaffer replied very carefully by stating that the total round count uhm that was uhm released after the investigations were done were 10 rounds.
8 by the shooter himself, the threat, and two friendly rounds after that.
note that he did not answer the question “how many rounds and how many shots were fired?”, but that he simply referred to what was written in the report…
as I mentioned in my reply earlier today, I believe the snipers on the barns fired 3 subsonic rounds from their suppressed rifles too:
1 Like
I am so happy you bring this up!
would it be possible for any of you to
- isolate the swoooosh sound of the hydraulic fluid of the JCB lift being pushed out and determine when the swoooosh sound started to link it to the bullet number
- estimate the time it would have taken for the hydraulic beam to get from its fully extended to its lowest position
the footage shows that the hydraulic fluid stops being pushed out 17 frames before 9m08s starts in this video (https://youtu.be/rLLTmANI4rk?t=547)
in this video, the first shot is fired at 8m55s (https://youtu.be/rLLTmANI4rk?t=535)
so, it took less than 13 seconds between the first shot and the hydraulic beam to get to its lowest position, and it seems to me the spray was pushed out at constant pressure until the end, as it stops abruptly…
last frame before spray stops (https://youtu.be/rLLTmANI4rk?t=547):
the shrivelled version:
the fully erect version:
so, it has 3 black beam sections that get into the yellow base.
it is likely a JCB 510-55TC (JCB 510-55TC | Briggs JCB):
Don’t trust my calculations, I make mistakes from time to time.
To get an average “position” of a wave packet,
the formula is <Ψ|X|Ψ> (but it should be normalized to <Ψ|Ψ>).
(Usually our wave packet is normalized originally, so <Ψ|Ψ>=1.)
Why does <ψ|ψ> = 1?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskPhysics/comments/157t2p4/why_does_ψψ_1/?rdt=56437
1 Like
I also had that position pointed out for quite some time. Mainly because Trump himself said the counter sniper killed the shooter with a 400 yards shot. But now as we have more information and especially the audio analysis, that doesn’t support any shot being fired from this location. Watch Greg’s video here
@kincses-zsolt these shifts are quite interesting and agree with my eyeball estimates that I had made a week or so ago.
From @greg_n placement of shot 9 and the location of Crooks and our knowledge of where the cruiser is, I wonder if there is an arrangement of the three microphones that makes sense for this result?
What doesn’t make sense is that the shifts between the channels don’t match from shot to shot in the first 8. How do we explain that? At least for the last five of those, where all the other sources pretty much say single shot location, this is weirdly not right
1 Like
We all know real killer of JFK was a 2nd shooter in the grassy knoll. There always seems to be a second shooter in these assassinations.
I just learned that Sirhan Sirhan did not kill Robert F Kennedy, there was, again, a second shooter. His son, RFK Jr, describes what really happened.
There is no way the assassination attempt on Trump relied on a 20-year old kid. Logic and history require a 2nd shooter.
Wait a second. I have choosen the samples, originally, for the correlation test. Some shots are too close to each other, so I’ve choosen a non-overlapping part.
Maybe I should calculate with shorter samples - without echo (or whatever).
What is your recommendation for sample lengths?
5,6.7 are too close to the next shot.
I was a 9 yr old kid living in Texas back in Nov 1963. It was one of those moments that will forever live in my brain.
I swallowed hook, line & sinker that LHO was the lone gunman at Dealy Plaza. I dismissed those that claimed otherwise. I did watch Stone’s movie shortly after it was released for cable tv & found it interesting but it didnt spur anything in me.
I dont know what triggered me into taking a deep dive into that assassination but a couple of years ago I began reading several books that opened up my eyes on how obvious it was a masterfully, crafted plan.
I have heard about the claims that RFK suffered a similar fate - that it wasnt Sirhan Sirhan.
I need to begin reading some good books on that subject now.
Any suggestions?
Edit: I dont want to hijack this thread about the Trump shooting. The moment I heard about it that Saturday afternoon, I immediately was in the camp that there is more to this story. It’s gotten to the point that I need absolute proof it was Crooks as the lone gunman otherwise he was just another patsy.
2 Likes
