[quote=treebeard]Can you eat gold or silver? Heat your house with it? Can cultivate your garden beds with it? Will it generate heat or electricity? Will it generate hot water? Will it keep you warm in the winter? Is it a good insulator? Can you repair tools with it? Can you prepare foods with it? Wiill it make you smarter?
Will it attract thieves? Will it occupy the mind with worry about it's value? Will it build trust amoungst friends? Will those with power covet it and try and control its value?
Value is in the eye of the beholder
[/quote]
Treebeard,
Let's not join the ranks of those who dismiss the value of gold and silver. There are already too many misinformation/disinformation personnel who are prowling the Internet doing just that. Gold and silver are important … but not ALL important. Some level of concern about gold and silver is sensible … obsession about it is not. Your food which is eaten, house which is heated, garden beds which are cultivated, heat and electricity that are generated, hot water that is produced, etc., are also of importance but also can all be taken from you and all create the same social, psychoemotional, and spiritual problems that gold and silver can. Everything has its place. But these are all material concerns and are temporal in nature … my first, foremost, and highest concern should be on things spiritual and eternal … and that's true whether I live and thrive or wither and die. All else will follow from that, whatever happens. That's where the only true peace and security lies.
[quote=treebeard]Can you eat gold or silver? Heat your house with it? Can cultivate your garden beds with it? Will it generate heat or electricity? Will it generate hot water? Will it keep you warm in the winter? Is it a good insulator? Can you repair tools with it? Can you prepare foods with it? Wiill it make you smarter?
Will it attract thieves? Will it occupy the mind with worry about it's value? Will it build trust amoungst friends? Will those with power covet it and try and control its value?
Value is in the eye of the beholder
[/quote]
What planet do you live on dude?
Are you implying that you never purchase heat for your house or hot water system? Or that you didn't use money to purchase solar equipment? That you never bought insulation for a house? Did you harvest reeds from the swamp and grind them with a rock and place them in your walls made of natural materials?
Point being…most of us earthlings use money.
Now the question becomes what money is the safest, the most enduring. I put Gold and Silver way ahead of fiat digits or paper dollars. I use dollars for commerce because I have to. I save in Gold and Silver so that I can purchase things in the future that I can't make myself.
If you can demonstate to me that you don't use any form of money, then I might take your comments seriously. Or if you can convince me that there is more lasting value in a paper dollar note than in silver, then you have my attention.
With all due respect I have to question your perspective.
Some people just have a bad relationship with it.
If one were to start buying precious metals today, would they buy gold, silver, or both? If both, in what kind of ratio?
Jim,
I know you'd make good on your bet (as I would if you won) … you're obviously a gentleman and a very smart guy to boot. Just keep us updated on things G&S as you've done and that's good enough payment for me. And let's hope we don't have to wait too long.
Big picture, isn't the crisis of our times a spiritual crisis? Haven't we come out of a long period where the accumulation of material wealth to the detriment of all other things been the root cause of our problems? Aren't we a culture obsessed with wealth, fame and power? Isn't the key in, a wonder and awe of the simple things that we are all to busy to stop and see?
If resilence is only about survival, isn't it a waste of time? Isn't resilience really about reconnecting life around us in the current moment, friends, family and the living world that sustains us? Isn't that our best survival technique anyway? New work on evolutionary theory indicates that it was the species that were best at cooperation that survived not those with at competitive advantage I think bears this out.
Are we confident that when the gold suppression game fails the guys playing at it are just going to say, "oops we loose, you win, we'll go quietly away now"? Isn't the whole system a rigged game that allows a small minority of insiders, market makers, to accumulate extraordinary amounts of wealth from a economic form that has become so corrupt and rotten over time that it knows no moral bounds. Isn't it naive to think that when things don't go their way they'll play by the "rules"? Don't we already see the rules be changed on a regular basis to suit those in a possition of wealth and power? Isn't it time that we walked out of the casino rather than trying to beat the house at its own game?
Why not invest in things that not only bring satisfaction into our present lives, gives us a sense of control, purpose and meaning and gives back to those systems and people who support and sustain us? Money is the means of keeping score in a game, It doesn't matter whether you use gold, silver, sea shells, tally sticks or paper. Its the way we are playing itself (living our lives) that is fundamentally broken. We are faking the score to make it seem like the game is going well and you can do that with any means of account. Its the playing of the game itself where our power lies, that how we can change with world, that is how it is changing now.
[quote=treebeard] Money is the means of keeping score in a game, It doesn't matter whether you use gold, silver, sea shells, tally sticks or paper. Its the way we are playing itself (living our lives) that is fundamentally broken. We are faking the score to make it seem like the game is going well and you can do that with any means of account. Its the playing of the game itself where our power lies, that how we can change with world, that is how it is changing now.
[/quote]
Who's keeping score? Not me.
Money is not a goal, it is a tool that is used to navigate on this planet.
My goals are to sing more songs, to grow better gardens, to build more sustainable structures, to make lasting friendships, to see my daughters and their husbands prosper. Money, for better or for worse, plays a role in life. It buys my guitar strings, my garden seed, building materials, dinners with friends and it pays my employees.
Real money, as in Gold and Silver, represents honest value earned by honest labor. Money in itself is not evil. The pursuit of money as an end is nothing more than stupid.
Treebeard you asked many questions. I believe they are worthy and sincerely asked and I answer them from my heart.
Big picture, isn't the crisis of our times a spiritual crisis?It isn't a crisis of our time, it is human nature. There is nothing new under the sun.
Haven't we come out of a long period where the accumulation of material wealth to the detriment of all other things been the root cause of our problems?Long period? Like all of history? (Again) there is nothing new under the sun.
Aren't we a culture obsessed with wealth, fame and power?Yes, only because we now have easy connections (since the advent of electronic media). I have little doubt that even "cavemen" would have worshiped wealth, fame, and power if they felt a connection to it.
Isn't the key in, a wonder and awe of the simple things that we are all to busy to stop and see?Well yes, of course. Philosophy has been parsing our human faults for millennia.
If resilence is only about survival, isn't it a waste of time?Resilience isn't only about survival, it is about having a purpose and passing that on.
Isn't resilience really about reconnecting life around us in the current moment, friends, family and the living world that sustains us?Yes, that is a wonderful description.
Isn't that our best survival technique anyway?I don't know about that. For me, it doesn't matter.
New work on evolutionary theory indicates that it was the species that were best at cooperation that survived not those with at competitive advantage I think bears this out.Cites please. I am dubious.
Are we confident that when the gold suppression game fails the guys playing at it are just going to say, "oops we loose, you win, we'll go quietly away now"?I understand what you are saying here is that the "gold suppression" players are pretty damn powerful and not going to give up - they aren't going away. I agree. But there may be forces more powerful than they are.
Isn't the whole system a rigged game that allows a small minority of insiders, market makers, to accumulate extraordinary amounts of wealth from a economic form that has become so corrupt and rotten over time that it knows no moral bounds.[?]That is definitely implied by the original post here. And whether and when those bounds run up against a boundary greater than what the very powerful can create remains to be seen.
Isn't it naive to think that when things don't go their way they'll play by the "rules"?I didn't understand anywhere in this thread that anyone is so naive.That premise appears to be mistaken.
Don't we already see the rules be changed on a regular basis to suit those in a possition of wealth and power? Isn't it time that we walked out of the casino rather than trying to beat the house at its own game?What? Like go off grid, check out, barter and live happily ever after? Or maybe we can kumbaya and make it all go away. (I don't mean to sound flippant) This isn't a casino in LV that you can walk away from. Tell me how you propose walking out.
Why not invest in things that not only bring satisfaction into our present lives, gives us a sense of control, purpose and meaning and gives back to those systems and people who support and sustain us?Go for it, nobody is stopping you (other than HOA's, CCRs and Govt regulators but never mind). If you have a decent amount of cash to invest in some land then buy it and build yourself an off-grid house (made with products already produced) , start growing your own food and all the rest. It is an admirable life! (Of course, the wherewithal to do that does not grow on trees and free homesteads are hard to find these days.) Investing in gold is tangential to your question as that investment is more about preserving purchasing power.
Money is the means of keeping score in a game, It doesn't matter whether you use gold, silver, sea shells, tally sticks or paper. Its the way we are playing itself (living our lives) that is fundamentally broken. We are faking the score to make it seem like the game is going well and you can do that with any means of account. Its the playing of the game itself where our power lies, that how we can change with world, that is how it is changing now.Nice thoughts. Unfortunately we all live in a world that runs on money, however that money is defined.. There are some "experiments" (which I find worthy) that attempt to break this barrier. The most interesting of those that I have found is Auroville in India. Here is a link to a documentary about Auroville, founded in 1965, that I believe you will enjoy http://puresalvageliving.com/very-informative-video-about-the-auroville-community/ I admire dreamers for they are the doers of the future.
I read and appreciate everyone's opinions here. I agree that a lot of what we do is out of our control. You have to have some form of money to survive at this time. With that being said I agree more and more with the thinking of Treebeard. Human nature does play a large part but knowledge should go a long way in changing what we think and how we act. You can make large changes to the system by not engaging in destructive activities that are promoted at every turn. This time needs to be different or we might not make it . With all the info out there and websites like this one it is hard to make excuses not to change. This is the first time in our history that you can see the effects we have on the planet as a whole.
I think that we have anthropomorphized PM's, projecting our values and honesty and hard work onto them. Ultimately their value is a human construct, without a collective belief in the rule of law, no monetary system will save us. We as human beings have to change the way we think about the world. Fundamental to that shift in MHO is understanding that human systems are a subset of natural systems and not the reverse. We have projected our own dark side onto the world around us and have used that as an excuse for our own brutal and ultimately self destructive behavior. We need to look at ourselves honestly or the gig is up.
What is the basis in the belief in PM's? A long history of human beings in europe valuing it as money. Other cultures have long sought for its beauty and artistic qualities, but seemed not to have developed quite the same relationship with it. But isn't it after all the gold dealers and merchants who got us into this whole fiat currency mess to begin with?
Can PM's be part of an enforcement mechanism to help prevent currency manipulation? Maybe. But investing our belief in any inanimate object as a basis for moral human behavior is ultimately delusional. Through the long course of human history, both in the experience of the sublime and the horrific, and we have had plenty of both, our collective experience is ultimately guiding us towards a right livelihood and relationships. We have to change, and current events are making that plain in a way that has never happened human history before.
To group together the Nazi and the Hopi in a verbal wave of the hand about human nature through all history and cultures is a slight of hand is to excuse our current indulgences and intellectual laziness. Peoples throught history have organized themselves in dignified and beautiful ways, we have these examples to help guide is in our current perilous times. It is possible to get this thing right, but human beings must change.
To play the game in this currently corrupt and collapsing system would it be prudent to own some PM's? Maybe, but that is a side show to the main event. We are at an evolve or die place in our history, the work to be done is reconfiguring how we see our place in the universe, to tell ourselves a different set of stories than reinforce a different set of values. To get through humanities terrible twos, so we can drop the belief that we are the center universe and take our rightful place in the world.
BTW Michael Tomasello at the Max Planck Institute has done some interesting research regarding evolution, it is a poor start, but it is a beginning.
Anexaminedlife,
I appreciate your reply to Treebeard and you have good points from a realist's point of view. I think of myself as a realist as well, so as I read your responses I was nodding my head. But, I'm also a spiritual being which to me lies deeper than my realist point of view, so in the end my heart lies in agreement with Treebeard's questions. I think it's important to note that he asks the questions but doesn't give the answers allowing for each person to come up with their own answer. That allows the most freedom of expression. You acknowledge it in your title…no ultimate answers.
I've been reading Jeremy Rifkin's "The Empathic Civilizaton," which struggles with these questions in depth. Treebeard is correct that evolutionary theorists, psychologists, linguists, biologists, neuroscientists, and sociologists are finding that there is a lot of evidence that the empathic embodied response to life (hardwired into our genetics) is what has kept our species alive. These are just theories, but so is Descartes' theory of individualized disembodied rationality… "I think therefore I am" is evolving into "I participate, therefore I am." How beautiful!
If you need specific studies Rifkin sites many:
Marco Iacoboni, neuroscientist at UCLA, one of the leading researchers in mirror neurons; studies show we are wired for empathy.
Christian Keysers, Univ. of Groningen; more mirror neuron studies.
Emory Univ. and Univ. of St. Andrews, scotland; biological studies in learned behavior in animals.
Italian Scientists under direction of Giacomo Rizzolatti; experiments in macaque's brain (F5 neurons) and the empathic response.
There are many more studies he cites but that gives you a few. He also points out that Darwin himself in his later works "The Descent of Man" and "Expression of the Emotions of Man and Animals," notes the social nature of most animals and event their emotions and moral responsibilities.
My thought is that there is contradiction in the myth of our Hero as an invulnerable self-sufficient being and what we are finding at the core of our existence…that empathy in response to vulnerability is what connects us and not only keeps us alive, but gives us truth and meaning. So in essence being vulnerable and sharing that vulnerability brings ultimate meaning, not building your own island of invulnerability and self-sufficiency.
Getting back to gold, silver, and money, what always intrigues me is the "science" side of economics/social science and how we make the assumption that we can accurately quantify human behavior. Isn't this where it is ultimately flawed? In the end aren't all these graphs and data just disembodied abstractions? That leads me back to the question of who is more of a dreamer?..Treebeard or those of us who look to the graphs for answers?
I love your PP name 'anexaminedlife.' I wish I had thought of it as I continue to re-examine my life daily.
Thank You
Treebeard said,
I think that we have anthropomorphized PM's, projecting our values and honesty and hard work onto them. Ultimately their value is a human construct, without a collective belief in the rule of law, no monetary system will save us. We as human beings have to change the way we think about the world. Fundamental to that shift in MHO is understanding that human systems are a subset of natural systems and not the reverse. We have projected our own dark side onto the world around us and have used that as an excuse for our own brutal and ultimately self destructive behavior. We need to look at ourselves honestly or the gig is up.To me, this is hyperbole. Belief in PM's? Value as a construct? I have worked hard in a high tech manufacturing job for 30 years, always living below my means, always saving. The Corporation I work for changed the game under me 12 years ago, telling me they no longer had a pension obligation to me.. I was and am on my own in figuring out how to retire someday, managing this lump of money, and that.What is the basis in the belief in PM's? A long history of human beings in europe valuing it as money. Other cultures have long sought for its beauty and artistic qualities, but seemed not to have developed quite the same relationship with it. But isn't it after all the gold dealers and merchants who got us into this whole fiat currency mess to begin with?
Can PM's be part of an enforcement mechanism to help prevent currency manipulation? Maybe. But investing our belief in any inanimate object as a basis for moral human behavior is ultimately delusional. Through the long course of human history, both in the experience of the sublime and the horrific, and we have had plenty of both, our collective experience is ultimately guiding us towards a right livelihood and relationships. We have to change, and current events are making that plain in a way that has never happened human history before.
Let's say I want to convert much of my savings into Silver. Treebeard says that Silver's value is a human construct… really? Silver's value is not some intangible construct… if you want an intangible pure money construct… then I would point you to US dollars, or Bitcoin (which I write about often and think highly of). Silver though is a relatively rare metal that enables all kinds of technical progress in the world due to it's unique properties… and I would argue that it will find even more uses in the future;
Now, I would agree that Silver or Gold is not going to save "us", and I am not necessarily an advocate for PM's becoming our monetary system… but it for sure is going to be a better means to hold the value of my saved labor than that true human construct… the US dollar. I very much appreciate Treebeard's visioning work… but I very much don't appreciate the way he (or she) conflates this vision into an anti-money, anti-savings campaign that would have one believe that storing labor is somehow rooted in our dark side. It is not… it is just stored labor… it is just prudent… it is just human to want to have some savings. It is just human to want to have some savings to pass on to one's children. I don't love money… I just am not willing to let greedy, lying bankers and politicians destroy the value of my saved labor. Why do some people hate money?
I am (he) not against money, nor am I against savings. Both are critical components of a functioning modern society. I understand the need to protect the value of earned labor by an alternative means because the current monetary system has became so corrupted. I daily debate what I should do with savings I am now starting to accumulate. I too have worked hard over the past 30 years and lived responsibly and frugally. My route was to eliminate all debt first and live in a way that I felt was responsible, pay for my kids college education, etc. then save for retirement.
I apologise for being a bit bombastic, each of us must find our own way forward in these difficult times. I have debated on and off myself about PM and may in the end purchase some. But so far I have not been able to do so because other demands of my "dream" have prevented it. Time will tell.
The idea of being off the grid and self sufficient is an illusion, the earth is too small, we share each others fates. I try to spend time realistically envisioning what the future will bring and preparing in a way that makes sense. If the dollar really does collapse and I do have silver to spend while my neighbors don't, will that create a viable situation? But if I have worked to help create a viable alternative economy that can function under such duress in which we as community call pull together and work our way through. Aren't my chances better, aren't all our chances better of continuing a meaningful and viable human project into the futue?
Andrew
Speaking of living independently and sustainably, me and the Mrs. just saw Werner Herzog's film "Happy People: A Year in the Taiga." Awe-inspiring wilderness and rugged individualism off the grid in Siberia.
http://www.musicboxfilms.com/happy-people--a-year-in-the-taiga-movies-55.php
With Happy People: A Year in the Taiga, Werner Herzog takes viewers on yet another unforgettable journey into remote and extreme natural landscapes. The acclaimed filmmaker presents this visually stunning documentary about the people living in the heart of the Siberian Taiga. Deep in the wilderness, far away from civilization, 300 people inhabit the small village of Bakhtia at the river Yenisei. There are only two ways to reach this outpost: by helicopter or boat. There‘s no telephone, running water or medical aid, The locals, whose daily routines have barely changed over the last centuries, live according to their own values and cultural traditions. With insightful commentary written and narrated by Herzog, Happy People: A Year in the Taiga follows one of the Siberian trappers through all four seasons of the year to tell the story of a culture virtually untouched by modernity.
However, they do use gasoline, chainsaws, outboard motors for their boats and snowmobiles. Still, it's a rugged way of life. There was no mention of money (in any form) but there is an economy linked to Russian society (fur trapping). Lots to think about.
[quote=Jim H] I very much don't appreciate the way he (or she) conflates this vision into an anti-money, anti-savings campaign that would have one believe that storing labor is somehow rooted in our dark side. It is not… it is just stored labor… it is just prudent… it is just human to want to have some savings. It is just human to want to have some savings to pass on to one's children. I don't love money… I just am not willing to let greedy, lying bankers and politicians destroy the value of my saved labor. Why do some people hate money?
[/quote]
Jim,
As a working man I agree wholeheartedly with your explanation of savings and value.
There is no reason to rant against an inanimate object, be it silver or gold or any other resource. The focus of attention must be on the "lying bankers and politicians", who are destroying our hard working middle class, and stealing from those who have saved for old age.
Honest money goes hand in hand with a stable society. Insight into the history of Gold and Silver through PP and other forums is educating a growing community.
This is a long post for me. Apologies in advance and also for the bad organization. I could not get the spacing icons to work right.
Maybe in our discussions on PMs we are conflating some elements that are better understood separately. Here’s how it’s breaking down for me.
1. Wealth. The conditions and material resources that humans need to live well and joyfully:
-A home planet with functioning biospheres and plenty of natural resources
-Food, shelter, water
- Security, sane forms of social organization
- Physical, mental, social and spiritual health in their many forms
- Goods and services that we want for enjoyment
-Opportunities to fully live our unique genius out while we are here
2. Currency/Money. A socially agreed-upon representation of wealth. Perhaps, in its raw form, an innocent, spontaneous, unique expression of human intelligence that, like language and mathematics, was invented to increase the functionality of our cultures.2a) PMs. A long-standing form of currency: not wealth itself except for silver's industrial aspect.
They give access to wealth if:
- surplus wealth is available to be traded for gold
- we accept them as currency amongst ourselves
- there is social order such that trading with them is possible
2b) Fiat. A barely functioning currency, not wealth itself, under deconstruction.With these teased out some thought conflicts disappear for me.
Clearly there are some categories of wealth that no currency has a claim on. Love, health, a living biosphere, healthy community, those sacred moments that come to each of us, commonsense, sanity… They cannot be bought or created with gold or fiat.
Also clearly, gold is not wealth. Only wealth is wealth. No quantity of gold substitutes for food, safety or a plentiful supply of cheap oil. If they are scarce, they are scarce no matter how much gold we have.
It certainly does look like PMs are a better form of currency than fiat, and may perform longer as a claim on wealth.
A little to the side is the overriding concern about wealth itself. How much food, shelter, water, power and the thousands of other kinds of material wealth will there be in a peak everything world with a broken currency?
Taking in the recent PP offerings, it’s been really sinking in that the functionality of our current currency system has been co-opted by a group who are gaming it to death. So something that we invented together because we need it to run our civilization (and to feed ourselves!) is having its back broken as we speak. My brain starts to shuffle unhappily from foot to foot at this point.
Appreciations to all of you for your posts, and apologies for the beginner mind here. I know this is elementary thinking, but it's important to me to get the basics right. Learning central! Feedback welcome.
Susan
A couple of days ago while BusinessInsider types were hyperventilating about Gold's "death cross", in the last 3 minutes of the trading day somebody stepped into some out of the money gold calls in a major way:
250,000 Barrick Jan 14 90C @ 0.09
156,312 Goldcorp Jan 14 80C @ 0.07
200,000 Newmont Jan 14 80C @ 0.10
That's about a 5.3M bet.
See:
http://www.optionmonster.com/news/article.php?page=huge_buying_in_gold_miners_at_close_78643.html
Feels like a bottom. Have not lost a wink of sleep in the latest downturn.
I think most folks are not obsessed with fame, wealth, or power, but are happy with basic and fairly equitable elements of wealth such as herewego described above. However a minority of the population that is obsessed probably gets the most attention in the media and elsewhere.
Perhaps rather than thinking of our system and society as unstable and approaching collapse also consider the stablizing factor in the nature of humans to build societies and nations and restore order out of chaos. That may be the factor behind the strength of fiat currencies, beyond government decree.