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When did it become my responsibility to prevent you from catching a virus or bacterium that I may or may not have caught myself? It's not.So: I see you emphatically denying that the bodily well-being of others is anything to concern yourself about. That doesn't leave much ground to stand on when you want respect for your own bodily autonomy, y'know.
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Yoxa-
I’ll answer your question when you answer mine.
What do you get from us here at PP? Why are you here?
Seriously. I’m not answering anything from you until you answer my question first.
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Studies have shown that the vaccinated can and do transmit SARS-CoV-2 just as readily as the unvaxed;
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.12.21265796v1 Transmission potential of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a federal prison, July—August 2021 Conclusions As this field continues to develop, clinicians and public health practitioners should consider vaccinated persons who become infected with SARS-CoV-2 to be no less infectious than unvaccinated persons.That's pretty damn clear. If you really want to go down this path further, maybe I would want to blame the vaccinated for their naive complicity in altering the evolutionary landscape that SARS-CoV-2 sees such that new escape mutations are coming so hard and fast that even those with natural immunity may be at risk again;
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34873910/ Mechanisms of SARS-CoV-2 Evolution Revealing Vaccine-Resistant Mutations in Europe and America Here, we demonstrate that vaccine-breakthrough or antibody-resistant mutations provide a new mechanism of viral evolution. Specifically, vaccine-resistant mutation Y449S in the spike (S) protein receptor-binding domain, which occurred in co-mutations Y449S and N501Y, has reduced infectivity compared to that of the original SARS-CoV-2 but can disrupt existing antibodies that neutralize the virus.How does that feel, Yoxa, to be at least partially responsible, as part of the first ever mass vaccination campaign with a leaky, single epitope "vaccine", for creating a new mechanism for viral evolution? A new mechanism that could, conceivably nullify Muller's ratchet and cause the emergence of more lethal versions? Was the mass vaccination a societal good? I submit that there is no way that this was a societal good... not at the all-cause mortality level, not in terms of our collective health future. The small short term benefits to mortality are more than offset by a long list of negatives and a long tail of vaccine damage.
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To lock them away until the young/healthy people all get natural immunity.
I am much more concerned about a mask/vaxxed asymptotic spreader than I am about an unvaxxed sick young person.
And the folks I am really concerned about are the under 20’s that have poor health because of the jab, crumbling teeth, no social skills, no friends and poor economic future. When they realize what we have stolen from them so grandma can goto the grocery store I think we are going to see chaos.
Kathy
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Jim H.,
What you posted is true but that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Even the CDC Director admitted that the vaccines do not stop the spreading of the virus.
The conclusion:
Fully vaccinated people who get a COVID-19 "breakthrough" infection can spread the virus to others even if they are not symptomatic, Centers for Disease Control Director Rochelle Walensky told CNN on Thursday.Which means that by getting the vaccine you could become a stealth spreader. Spreading it to vulnerable people without even knowing it. Data supports this conclusion. Here is a study from Harvard University showing that increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States. Harvard Study To add to the previous post regarding cases, here is a chart that shows US deaths per 100,000 cases vs % vaccinated by state since the beginning of the pandemic. No correlation between vaccination and deaths.
Data sources:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
And the vaccinated could spread the disease with large viral loads.
Here is study published in the Lancet:
... fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort studyAnd here is a collection of over thirty studies showing that vaccination (individual or in mass) either does not stop transmission or is of dubious efficacy. https://brownstone.org/articles/16-studies-on-vaccine-efficacy/ So there is simply no "moral duty to others" to get vaccinated. It is an individual medical decision not affecting issues of public health as a whole.
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Yoxa said:
what's your strategy for making sure you don't pass the virus around if you get it? Especially if you don't know you have it? Someone who ends up in ICU from covid has clearly missed something in how they protect themselves. That's the part that puzzles me, why they would let their guard down.I see 2 sillys every time I leave the house: 1. people wearing masks completely ineffectively: gaps and puckers all around; down below the nose; on when standing in a restaurant but fully off when sitting; pulling them down to lean in and talk to an acquaintance; upside down, for gawd's sake... the list goes on. Most people I see wearing masks simply aren't accomplishing either containment or prevention. 2. people who have been vaxxed behaving fully normally, apparently completely unaware that the vaccines do not prevent them from either contracting Covid or passing it on to others, and apparently unaware that the spike protein factory set up in their cells is as much a danger as this super flu, if not a greater. Juxtaposed to that highly ineffective mass behavior, every now and then we are treated to a photo or video of high-level officials who don't appear to know there's a camera catching them when they think they're out of the public eye so wearing masks and maintaining social distance can go by the wayside. I marvel anyone can see such and not grasp the theater. The simple fact is that we are all going to get Covid sooner or later. 99.98% of us will experience little more than flu symptoms - just like during annual flu season. So...what is it we're worried about, exactly? I imagine the same people who obsess over annual flu shots that don't work are obsessing over Covid shots that don't work. A great many are probably Karens who obsess over germs and bacteria, too, running about sterilizing everything and trying to keep their little Karens from getting dirty hands and grass stains on their clothes. They surely don't want to hear that their skin is alive with these little powerhouses of nature and natural processes. Or that viruses happen. All in, I don't participate any longer. I do wear a mask occasionally, out of deference when I think deference is warranted (some hills are not worth the bother of fighting over), but I have no fear of Covid and I am 100% opposed to government sponsored vaccine and mask mandates - especially given the ludicrous manner in which people misuse masks, and the fact these vaccines are not vaccines at all but, at best, treatments and at worst poison. I have no interest in defending my position. The data's out there; certainly it's here and no one can be on this site and have not been exposed to the real science. It matters not to me whether any particular PPer believes this data or that data. We all set our candles down somewhere, live accordingly, and reap the benefits and consequences of our choices. Have at it as you will; I'll as I will. I have no intention of segregating myself from the public square. Those afraid for their health (whether operating from a real fear based in their own biological frailty or from a false, manufactured perception - this second being where I perceive Yoxa to be stationed) can do the hiding and withdrawing as they choose. When I sense someone in meat space is nervous, I do maintain some distance - most such are people I'm not going to see again anyhow and wouldn't want to get close to in the best of circumstances; a very few are so locked into the fear mindset, and I care about them, so I meet them halfway: I don't mask altho they do, but I don't press closer than they're comfortable with me being. They can set the terms, it's no problem for me. I am fortunate that the people I hang with are 98% as unconcerned as I am - most don't even take the prophylactic regimen that I do. BTW, Yoxa, this,
Someone who ends up in ICU from covid has clearly missed something in how they protect themselves.is not necessarily true. It's possible to do everything we know is "right" to do prophylactically and still get a disease, or die. It's also possible to take every recommended treatment for any particular illness and still end up in ICU. These are true statements for Covid, too. We don't know everything about everything, and our bodies are incredibly complex entities. The protocols - whether Fauci approved or FLCCC approved - are not 100%. Our best knowledge is only that; we know nothing exhaustively because our bodies, the world, and life itself are emergent systems. I choose to accept that, make the best choices I know to make with the best information I have at hand, and move on with living - doing the things I like with the people I love. Fauci and cabal can go pound sand.
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I had health issues a few years back that made be very susceptible to simple infections like the flu and cold and even other simple things. I also recall my wife when she was pregnant, and when my children were infants; we had to protect ourselves from simple flu. This could have killed me at the time. It could have killed my wife when pregnant and could have killed my children when they were infants or very young.
We took extra actions to be careful. We shopped less during flu season. We all didn’t shop together as we usually did. We didnt travel as much , and socialized less , and we avoided hospitals and doctors offices as much as possible
We did our NPIs.
If you are afraid, take action for yourself. I wished people didn’t go shopping coughing all the way through the produce section. This use to really annoy me. I asked why not wait till you are healthy, why not ask a friend or family to shop, etc. But in the end people dont care about you, and never did. But on a side note: why should that idiot walking around the store coughing do anything different? obviously some other monkey gave it to him, so why is he the evil one and not the guy before him , and the guy before him and the guy before and the guy before him. Oops had to reboot.
You see, you cant blame the guy for your illness because he gave it to you. like somehow he was the guy who created it. Oh yeah , that guy is fauci. THAT is the guy who we have to restrict his movement. I think there is place suitable for him. away from the public.
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This question is assiduously avoided by most of the players so vigorously promoting COVID vaccination. That is, why does the USA have such a high rate of COVID-related deaths?
We know monetarily incentivizing overdiagnosis is most likely one factor.
The prevalence of obesity, metabolic syndrome, and related disorders in the USA is most likely another.
You state: “Reasons for the difference are complex but too easily swallowing misinformation and sloppy logic is a big one.” Could you please elaborate on what exactly you mean by that and how those two factors increase the death rate?
Would you care to offer any other explanations for why the USA has a higher incidence of COVID deaths per capita as compared to Canada?
I can think of at least one off the top of my head but I’d like to hear your thoughts on the subject.
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How about just dancing on air?
In public, at least, for that event.
After all of their fair trials, of course!
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... why does the USA have such a high rate of COVID-related deaths? The prevalence of obesity, metabolic syndrome, and related disorders in the USA is most likely another.We have those too.
You state: "Reasons for the difference are complex but too easily swallowing misinformation and sloppy logic is a big one." Could you please elaborate on what exactly you mean by that and how those two factors increase the death rate?Wrong information or wrong understandings, no matter how sincerely believed, will result in some folks missing basic defence measures or doing things that are actively counterproductive. The first wrong information I remember noticing was Trump's suggestion in early 2020 that this virus was no worse than ordinary flu. Canada's health officials would say cautious-scientist things like "we don't have evidence about XYZ" but they were not saying all is well, don't worry, be happy.
Would you care to offer any other explanations for why the USA has a higher incidence of COVID deaths per capita as compared to Canada?Some folks have doubts about how accurate the death counts are but I don't think the magnitude of the difference can be explained by (hypothetical) inconsistencies in reporting. One factor that I think contributes mightily to the difference is that in 2018 the Trump administration disbanded the department responsible for pandemic preparedness. People weren't actually fired (a wrong claim sometimes made by Trump critics) but members of the team were redeployed to other departments and some quit. Even though some of the talent was still around, the team was no longer a team. So when a real pandemic showed up, the US didn't mount a coherent response. Communication from leadership was both confused and confusing. Canada's officials were more likely to pull in the same direction. Justin Trudeau did a better job of supporting his health officials than Trump did, in both word and behaviour. Example: in daily statements to the nation Trudeau faced the camera alone with no minions in sight. It was clear he took distancing seriously, unlike Trump with his swarms of sycophants. The difference in symbolism was huge, even before a word was said. I didn't vote for Trudeau, but I came to have much respect for the clarity of his communication in a wretched situation. Another factor in the US/Canada difference, maybe the biggest: in our medical system, decisions about our health care needs are made by medical professionals, not by insurance company bureaucrats. Our health care isn't tied to our employment status and we're not jerked around by predatory insurance companies. We have little incentive to delay seeking treatment when a need arises. Those who preach about the benefits of early treatment will see the value there. Final thought for now: last time I checked, Canada's average life expectancy was close to three years longer than the US for both men and women. Covid skews heavily towards older age groups, so one would expect a slightly older population to have more deaths, but if that's having an effect it's not enough to show up in any stats I found.
I can think of at least one off the top of my head but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject.Over to you, sir.
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Great post.
I would add, where was the moral outrage two years ago about child slaves mining cobalt etc for our smartphones, where was the moral outrage about children making our clothes, where was the moral outrage against human trafficking, where was the moral outrage against homelessness? The list goes on and on and on.
All of a sudden people give a shit about strangers? I’ll bet anything that those who say they’re getting the vaccine and wearing a mask to protect others don’t truly care at all if they’re honest with themselves. That’s just a story they tell themselves and others.
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Canada doesn’t pay the hospitals extra for every person they put on a ventilator.
I don’t know if any early treatment is given but even vitamins would make a difference.
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I visit here fairly regularly but don’t post often.
I see the same type of posts from GBell12 (I think it was), Joshua Green and now Yoxa. They all have the same condescending tone and will avoid any question or evidence that doesn’t fit with their (and coincidentally the official) narrative. It is clear that they do not have the open minded approach of many on here.
One has to hope that they are paid for their efforts as it would be sad indeed if they spend their free time trying to start arguments with strangers on the internet.
I don’t understand the point of engaging with them though. Why respond to their posts? One has to assume that they are here purely to waste our time and hinder any progress towards the truth. I cannot believe that they think their arguments are convincing.
I tend to think the same of those who post lots of links to out there stuff as well. It just seems like attempts to muddy the waters to me.
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Just read about the resignation of the Israeli education Covid administrator. It appears that she opposed vaccinating children in schools. The education minister explained in an interview that the government said it was a necessary action to protect schoolchildren and that “there is no other truth.” But we can’t call him a liar. If he only listens to his superiors, then he could be saying this truthfully. As a character in an old comedy once said, “I see nussing, I hear nussing.” The Jews of Israel have become their greatest enemy and now are killing their own children. What will they do next? Work camps for the unvaxed? Arbeit Mach Frei?" https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/318630
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So: I see you emphatically denying that the bodily well-being of others is anything to concern yourself about.I think you (deliberately?) misunderstand Pappy here. There is a huge difference between taking measures to not spread the infection when one is sick and preventing YOU from getting sick. I'm with Pappy here. The only effective way for me to prevent YOUR sickness would entail me relieving you of most of your rights. I don't want and don't accept such responsibility. You cannot convince me that it would be moral in any way.
That doesn't leave much ground to stand on when you want respect for your own bodily autonomy, y'knowNow you really lost me. How is your health related in any way to my bodily autonomy? Or are you saying that the only way you feel safe is when you have control over others' bodies? This seems a confused statement to me. Could you , please, clarify what you mean? If you are saying that it is everyone's duty to vaccinate so that YOU don't get sick ... or your neighbor's granny doesn't get sick ... that argument falls flat as the vaccines don't stop transmission.
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John Drake,
You wrote:
I don't understand the point of engaging with them though.For myself, there are two reasons to engage. One, there have been a flood of new members to this site in the past few months. Often, the new members are people who are fed up with the Captive Media. They have deduced that they are being lied to and are looking for the truth. In responding to those few coming here to push the mainstream narrative, regular PP's have a opportunity to engage the dominant narrative with powerful fact based arguments based upon information accumulated over months of research. That exposes the lies. In that way new members who have come here for answers, can find answers - laid out in detail in response each dominant MSM narratives. Two, if one does not respond to them, it might have the opposite effect. It might give some legitimacy to those arguments - as if there are no responses to the mainstream narratives.
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The Darkness of falsehoods grows only when there is no countering Light of truths!
And, it let’s us know what “false narratives” the “Cabal” are selling out there
that we all just might not be aware of yet, so we can counter them with facts.
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Hi Mike,
I do see that side of it, but my concern would be that new members or lurkers might be turned off by the inevitable irritation in some of the responses to the aforementioned agitators. A rube with no knowledge outside of the MSM experience possibly wouldn’t want to get into a discussion here if they feel intimidated by the answers given to others asking similar questions.
I feel at this point if someone argues that you get the injection to save others it is clear that they are a paid shill, brainwashed or have been living in a cave for a year and I can’t see the latter two groups finding their way to this site. Even the MSM dropped that concept ages ago.
I suppose a simple ‘read these links’ type post would provide a counter to the narrative without expressing any annoyance and if they ignore the evidence then they are exposed for what they are.
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