I believe the first three shots came from behind Crooks. The first shot was supposed to be “the kill shot”.
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More than one contributor has questioned my suggestion that the second shooter was positioned above the ceiling in Building 6. Their reason for rebuttal is that the drop ceiling would not support the weight of a person. Most likely the 80’ x 144’ building is a steel skeletal construction, with wood 2x4 interior walls. The space above the drop ceiling in that building ranges from about 3’ 4" to 6’ 8". Not all drop ceilings are constructed the same way. Most are suspended by wires, in some situations those wires are hung from the building’s steel super structure, but in other cases they’re hung from a false ceiling maybe 9’ or 10’ above the floor. That false ceiling, built with 2x4’s or 2x6’s would be where the insulation is laid and perhaps, the second shooter.
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AuroraHayes, in response to your request in post 179 for “help me understand the following”. #1. You reference the drop ceiling and crawl or attic space, see my post 182 from this morning for a possible explanation. #2. You don’t see any vent that I was referring to and the “patch” or “hole” doesn’t make any sense to you. See the picture of the south wall that I’ve attached. I’ve outlined the vents to make it easier for you to find them. I’m not insisting that’s where the shots came from, just saying it’s possible.
I think your other points have merit, but I don’t believe I’m the right person to address them.
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I am glad Cullen is being audited, s as everyone should be.
Here is a question: why has no one asked where the satellite footage is showing EVERYBODY’s comings and goings. Such footage exists I am told 24/7 365, but is tightly guarded against being released without overwhelming and compelling reasons for doing so and even then everything is always suspect these days so we have to discern from the largest sample of evidence of course, motives, using Occam’s Razor, logic, inductive and deductive reasoning.
Bottom line; inquiring minds want to know.
I think we are more or less clear with the back-traced height of approx. 11.33 feet. If anybody disagrees, please let us know. Now it would be interesting to know the horizontal position. Unfortunately, I found out that my two pictures I imported into my CAD system (Google Maps picture and the rally footprint) were not oriented correctly. This is because I can’t put the picture in “see through mode” and therefore it is difficult to perfectly align the two pictures. In addition, the picture resolution was poor. So, I decided to put the two pictures together in Photoshop, being able to perfectly align them without losing any resolution. Now I have an assembly picture perfectly aligned in HD.
Working with that new photo, I was able to determine the horizontal impact position very accurately and it came up to be a length of 46.23. I will put this reference floor plan onto Google Drive for download. I will also add the two original pictures, just in case somebody wants to do the alignment by themselves. Maybe schroederized you can verify this position with your CAD system? You don’t need to be in 3D mode to verify, 2D is enough.
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yep, ok, I’ll accept that as possible.
I saw the video from someone lawn view of DT & the snipers on the right who took the 1st 3 shots. Saw the 3 different directions the rifle was aimed that same night THEN if you recall none of the info/diagrams showed that there were even snipers on the South barn. There was a man high up in the middle bleaches behind DT the media reported was a Youtuber whom 2 days prior said he wanted to ‘take out DT’ The blue gloved Police officer seen holding up the dark hair bearded/moustache man’s arm (and more police in brown uniforms surrounded him) and they dragged the man across the middle bleachers left side. I saw the 2 men from these 3rd bleachers in the video …bare shouldered guy pictured here walked down & off with assistance & the other guy in that same area was carried off - leaving those bleachers on the right side. Media reported a dark hair bearded/moustached man (with picture) as David Dutch who was in an induced coma with 2 gun shots…one to the liver & one to the chest.
This is who they reported as the Youtuber with a gun behind DT.I knew at that time that this guy was NOT the Youtuber as he was thinner than the Large Youtuber BUT (If you look at some of the shot patterns you’ll see that they guesstimated that 2 different shots hit high in the middle bleachers…right where this guy was sitting. We have been mislead right from the beginning of this event. I spent 12 hrs that night reviewing any/all video I could to see where those 1st 3 shots I heard coming from back behind the middle bleachers to the right between the tree & pole. South barn snipers no longer appeared anywhere! They showed North barn snipers only & I knew they did not take the 1st 3 shots…they were alerterted/startled by the 1st shot(s). It was the 2nd shot that whized past them.
(Guy in middle bleachers mistaken for a shooter that night
Roger, for better photo match you can use the building in the top right in the red box. In the photo its only 2 dirt strips, but it is a better match than using the barns in the east.
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Regarding the location of Crooks on the roof of Building 6, I’ve seen various distances reported relative to the east end of the roof. I believe that Chris noted it as about 35’ in one of his videos. In the video shot by Sky News that was taken by helicopter while Crooks’ body was still on the roof, I was able to count the number of metal roof panels from the east end of the building to the one where the body was lying. It was in the 20th panel from the eastern end of the building. I took still shots of various videos that showed the roof, including Spa Guy, Sky News as well as the body cam video of the police officers on the roof in the Chuck Grassley release. With that information and the drawings that I have created, it’s apparent that the metal panels are 2’ wide. I confirmed that as I counted 72 panels and the roof is 144’ long. Crooks’ body was about 39’ (middle of the 20th panel) from the east end of the building. Drawing a straight line from his position with the barrel over the ridge cap to Trumps position on the stage shows that the point where the bullet passed over the south wall of Building 6 to be about 54.5’ from the east end of the building. This position lines up about halfway between window 3 and the nearest vent.
I’ve also attached a shot of what I’ve been using for the stage and bleacher location relative to the barns and walkway. A .bmp would be better than this .jpg but I couldn’t upload it. Hope it helps.
Another question that I’d like to throw out there for everyone. In the video submitted in post 170 by troisdfx, another man in the top row of the same bleacher appears to be hit at the same moment as Copenhaver and Dutch are wounded, but he’s 25’-30’ away. He’s in a white shirt and a red hat. He goes down immediately, as if he’s been hit, but I haven’t heard if he actually was. Can anyone verify? If he was hit by a bullet aimed at Trump, the shot would appear to have come from the western end of the two-story building where the ESU counter snipers were (supposed to be) stationed. At least, that’s what my reverse trajectory drawing indicates.
In the picture I’ve attached, I’ve also circled the cloud of gray material caused by the bullet striking the bleacher. My guess is that the cloud is the layer of galvanizing disintegrating. Other ideas?
There is a video by John Cullen showing all of this and even analyzing the whole back row of people to the right of the man in the red hat; it does appear that a shot was fired along the back row from a direction other than where the shooter was.
I somehow come up with 43’? I took the very good picture from the new drone video. Please have a look?
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Roger-Knight,
Great picture to work with. I had one from the Spa Guy’s drone video that was even clearer, but unfortunately it didn’t capture the whole building in one shot. In your pic, I count the total number of roof panels at 72. You too? I’m pretty confident about my Google Earth measurement of 144’ compared to your 142.23’ (142’ 2 3/4"). Even if you went with your dimension of 142.23’ and divided it by 72, the panels would be 23.7" wide. That dimension of 142.23’ would be a pretty unusual “size” for that type of metal building, much more likely to be the 144’. Also, the metal roof panel widths are very precise. I’ve only installed one metal roof myself and it was only a year ago. Those panels were 16" wide and very precise dimensionally even with overlapping panels. I studied numerous sources to establish that Crooks was lying on the 20th panel. Even last night, I was watching our recording of Ronald Rowe doing the Secret Service’s press conference on August 2 on Fox News and in the background, they were showing a repeating aerial video of the AGR complex which showed a really good shot of the roof of Building 6. It was somewhat sad, but we could see one clean panel, the one the FBI had cleaned the trail of blood from, it was the 20th panel from the east end of the building. That panel also lines up with the downspout on the south side of the building that Chris has pointed out several times in establishing Crooks’ position on the roof.
Back to your dimension of 43.08’. At the point you’ve indicated on your picture of the roof, I count 24 panels. I don’t know how exactly you’ve measured that distance, but at 24 panels, 2’ wide each, the figure should be 48’, not 43’. Make sense? 20th panel, near side rib = 38’, far side rib of that panel = 40’. Crooks was lying in the middle of the panel, so I’m going with 39’, but 40’ would probably be more accurate since he was shooting right-handed, or so I presume.
Oh BTW, thanks for the heads up on the Google Earth “show elevation profile” tool. Thanks to Sluggo for that one too. Never heard of it before. Obviously one of those “old dogs, new tricks” sort of thing.
Oh, sorry, I sent you the wrong picture…. too many screenshots at this moment! However, I found 35.75 which I indicated in my post 157. Yes, I also count 72 total panels. Therefore, your number 39’ is correct. The difference between you and me is probably coming from the drone wide angle. But putting Crooks even further away at 39’ makes it even more difficult for him to make that first shot! Crooks exact position is of course very important when back tracing shots. Good job! I will update this new position in my model accordingly. Together we are strong!
Hi VT,
Yeah, I had trouble aligning the pictures, good tip! Of course using a square makes it much easier. I would however claim that there is only one position that matches, kind of a puzzle and only one position is correct. I will try aligning the two using your method and compare to see if I get the same result.
Something strange to mention: When I wanted to go back to Google Maps to get the same picture, they seemed to have deleted the dirt road? Am I doing something wrong? But when you go in satellite view on the desktop Google Maps, you get the below screenshot, however on my cell phone I still get the old picture? Maybe somebody is trying to cover up?
I have my own theory on this topic. The guy is looking towards right and sees all the commotion going on and preventively ducks, making the entire aluminium bleachers floor shake and shortly there after everybody moves, because they are losing their balance. I know John Cullen interpreted that action for everybody dogging a bullet and it sent him off to the woods… I think just like Chris told us; this is something for the red zone…
like I said, at Crooks position it is impossible for him to make that shot! Trump would have to be standing on the mic stand to have his right ear pierced. I once tried to rotate the rally picture in such a way, that Crooks could take that shot, but impossible, now with 39’ from the roof makes it even worse.
It’s really starting to get damming to the fact that there was only one shooter? What do you guys think? Still not convinced. I challenge anybody to show how Crooks took that first shot in the position he was in; I would like to see the receipts!
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It’s very difficult. The best way is to use references that are close to the object of interest. There is another small house in the top left corner also. There might be some software that would compensate the image distortion, but I don’t know.
Probably it’s a different time of the satellite picture. Look on Goggle Earth, there is a button: Show image history.
Other thing that I noticed is that the image change position when you activate the 3D buildings on Google Earth.
The solution would be topographer with a total GPS station on site to reconstruct with precision of less the 1/10th of an inch. That is a little costly but very precise.
Gary @ Paramount Tactical is talking about trying to get a surveyor to the location and get real numbers for the site.
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I would claim now we are looking for feet and not for inches, so the data at our disposal is sufficient. Once we can trace back the path to Crooks position within inches, maybe we will be needing more accurate data. With all our efforts here in this forum, the calculated data leads to building 6, shortly below the roof rim and in addition the horizontal position does not match up with Crooks position either. Please if anybody has a plausible back trace calculation that leads back to Crooks position, I would be happy to see it.